SPEAKER_00 0:00

I'm Vicky, and I'm Lauren. This is You Haul and Unpack.

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Don't forget to text your best friend back. Ew.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Oh my goodness. So sorry for missing a week, you guys. Um, I was going through some super sad times. The not so good times about being bipolar is that you have depressive waves. And I had a really um around springtime, one of my cycles comes in where I get really, really sad and hit a nice little depressive slope. And so I had to make sure that my mental health came first. And unfortunately the podcast had to take a backseat to that. So I just want to say first and foremost, I'm sorry, but also not really, because mental health has to come first when it comes to certain priorities in your life. So thanks for staying tuned. And we practice what we preach. So absolutely. Yeah. And until this becomes our job job instead of our pass job job, then it has to yeah, it's gotta make sense. Yeah. When you have to increase self-care, this had to this had to be the thing that got moved. So yeah. Um, we're back though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're back. Yeah. With maniac mania cycle won't mean you have to skip anything. No, mania cycle means I have to check in to not overexpend or overspend. Fucking overspend for sure. I know. I just like book full vacations when you're finished. Sometimes it pays off. Like when we went to Aruba, and I was like, fuck it, whatever. I didn't even realize that was mania books. That was totally mania. You know what?

SPEAKER_01 1:38

That was a good vacation.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Aruba was a really good vacation. Especially the owls, those owls on the beach. Oh, they had like burrowing they had like sand owls. Yeah, I don't know what they're called, but like they had like these burrowing owls, and they had like a chair. They were like a it was like a bar stool that they like fenced off or something, yeah. So that they could live in it, and they like burrowed in little holes underneath, and we visited them every day. They were cool though, because as long as like you would mind your business, they would mind theirs, and like they were just like owls on the beach in Aruba. It was so out of line. It was like seeing like, I don't know, like an ice cube in the desert. You're just like, does that that's not is that real? And I just didn't expect them to be underground, but I don't know. That's I don't know, owls are cool as shit though. Speaking of birds, we got our sixth yeah. I went out for bread. They they we have this place next to us that makes like sourdough bread. Like sourdough, like like all whatever. It's like clean, I don't know, whatever. It's it's like a farm place, and you can get like homemade sourdough there. And I went for sourdough and I came home with a chicken. Yeah. Because now we have six chickens. What are they Edith, Emma, Eleanor, Esther, Emory and Esther, and Paige. Paige. Paige. They're pretty cool though. I never like caught on to like the farm life. I was never a farm life kind of person. You know, I always grew up in like a suburb and then it was like the beach. And like I never grew up in a farm area, but now that I like live here, it's like I'm like fully embracing. It's a vibe, and like you vibe with the animals, you know what I mean? Now we have six. I know when we're getting sheep. Yeah, yeah. So she's like not any help. I'll go to the store and I'll like text her stuff, just like, you know, one of us needs to have a backbone, and it's not gonna be me when it comes to clearly farm me either. Farm animals. And I did grow up in like kind of like, yeah, beach, but I also I kind of had both of those things. I had like the beach horseback riding. So you grew up closer to a farm. I was like, yeah, well, I had like a lot of farm in my upbringing. So, and my instructor was like also like, you know, any farm person. It's like, once you have so many, it's just like another one. Like, so I'm like, So now that we have six chickens, I'm like, oh fuck, I knew it was gonna be the gateway. But when I texted you the pictures of sheep, I was hoping you'd be like, no, babe, we can't have sheep. That's ridiculous. And you literally said, take two. I need friends. And well, you said, no, no, you said take one. And then I was like, we have to take two. And you said, bring them home and like call me or something. Okay, but first of all, let's get one thing straight. They're dwarfs, so where are they going? They're right, right, silence, because they're not going anymore. Well, we're getting them now. My point is, it's just that like we're now we're gonna now we have six chickens, we're gonna end up with two sheep in like the summertime, two cats, we could be two rabbits show. It's ridiculous. If Plathville can have a show, we can have a show. What would it be? The lesbians in their farm. Ew no. All right. We'll leave that up to that. That's such a bad title, like that's such an elongated title. We'll leave that up to TLC. Moving forward with our direction for today. I don't think we would make it on TLC. I don't think they want us. You don't think so? Oh, they're super Christian based. All right, I'm gonna move forward from this topic before we get sued. Sorry. We get sued so easily. Anyway, today's topic are they needs or are you controlling?

SPEAKER_01 4:56

So can we get sued for that?

SPEAKER_00 5:00

No, no, you definitely can't get sued. I think it's just like defamation you can get sued for. But like, nobody's gonna care. You think that like TLC doesn't have a bunch of like people that shit talk them? I'm sorry, but like Olivia Plath, like she goes on her TikTok daily and she's like, oh TLC! I love her.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

Anyway, okay, yeah. Alrighty.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

We're learning like what you can and can't say. Clearly, we're new to this. So if anybody wants to be my lawyer, if anybody has is a lawyer and wants to be my lawyer, you can't just volunteer to be my lawyer. Pro bono, because we're bono. We this is not our because I have 10 kids now. This is not our job yet. All right. Anyway. Are they needs or are you controlling? So, really, when you're in a relationship, any kind of relationship, I wouldn't even say romantic relationship. I would say any kind of relationship, there's always like a power dynamic. Yeah, well, the thing is there shouldn't be a power dynamic. I know, but usually that there is because there's a lot of unhealthy people out there that live in chaos. No, I agree with you. I'm just saying there shouldn't be a power dynamic. I think it becomes very normal to have a power dynamic. And like I think we hear all the time like someone's always like up above the other.

SPEAKER_03 6:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

I think that it's become like the social norm to have a power dynamic. I don't necessarily think that people have stopped themselves from wanting more power. Does that make sense? Like, I think that in any kind of relationship, like think of like Boston employee, it all comes down to the power struggle of I can ask these things of you, or like parent child, or even in romantic relationships, like I'm smarter than you, kind of thing. Where it's like, if I have a higher intelligence, like I can control you. So I think that it's normalized. I'm not saying it's fair or or right. I'm saying that it's become normalized that the power dynamic in relationships is real for whatever reason or another. And I think that people fight for power because, you know, egos, everyone has a touch of narcissism in them. And I think that the sliding scale of quote unquote who is better or who is more is always gonna exist. Unless, like, you know, I'm not saying this is every relationship. I'm saying that this is the majority of the time unhealthy relationships, these are the things that they carry. Narcissistic traits people have, not a touch of narcissism. That thank you for that question. Sorry, I was like, I was like, that that could get read completely understanding. You're right. No, I appreciate that clarification. So when it comes to like a healthy relationship and it comes to like what your needs are, like I've been called needy before, and like I've been called like a needy lover before. And like at the time I was wildly offended by that because I thought that that meant like I need you. And it meant like deep down I was insecure, of course. But like when it came down to like I need you, it really meant like for me, it meant I need reassurance, or I need quality time with you, or I need to know that you love me, or I need to know that you care about me because I wasn't getting these things from the partner that I was seeing at the time, or even with you when the scary thing about needing those things, the scary thing about being a needy lover, quote unquote, is having the strength to be vulnerable with you without being fearful that it's gonna eventually crumble. Yes. Sorry, I was listening, I was trying to like digest what you were saying. No, I appreciate that. So, like, I know that you and I have both had struggles with being vulnerable because it means that I have to show you all of my cards. But that also came down to our power dynamic and why we were so unhealthy. I was just gonna say that combats the power dynamic. So you can't necessarily have vulnerability and a successful power dynamic at the same time. But realistically, you don't need a power dynamic if you are expressing vulnerability and it's being received properly by your partner. I agree. But it also comes down to wanting to be received versus, and again, playing into that power dynamic. Like, I'm smarter than you, and you tell me that you need something, I'm gonna say, Well, you're being a baby about it. This is what you should do. Man up, woman up kind of thing. And that's where those unhealthy power dynamics come into play, where it can then turn into a control situation. Where it's like where it's like, well, if you need reassurance, why don't you go to counseling? Because clearly there's an insecurity on your part. You know what I mean? Yeah, or just like you said, even if it's like I'm smarter than you type of thing, like they it can end up morphing into like that person being the primary decision maker in the relationship. Absolutely. And then eventually, like, you know, there's always that joke of like who wears the pants in the relationship, but like really like you got one leg, I got one leg. We're in the same pant. You know what I mean? That's not funny. No, I it's you don't like my dad jokes. No, it's not that. I think that that would be more the one one leg in each pant would be like expressing more vulnerability and like equal partnership than power dynamic because that's empowered. I didn't I didn't get it. I don't I have autism. I don't have autism. That's fair. So on the other end of things is going to be a joke. Okay. That was not a good joke, but a joke. So on the other end of things, like wanting and demanding control in a relationship. I'm gonna use the example of like say you just left my house, like and we're dating and stuff like that. So you left my apartment, is me saying, Hey, text me when you get home so I know you got home, versus text me every hour so I know that you love me. Well, yeah, these are pretty like that's a pretty clear cut black and white. Right. Because these things can absolutely get blurred. Because definitely going back to like expressing your vulnerability, you know. Well, you did used to have me text you every however often. Exactly, because I was wildly insecure with myself.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

No, I have my own insecurities. I'm just saying you did both of those things where it would be like text me when you get home, which is like a caring type of like boundary rather than text me every hour or like I expect you to text me back within like X time frame. Right. And I think that Which is more controlling. I agree with you. And that was definitely a control tactic that I put into play because I had unresolved hurt from previous relationships. I'm not blaming you. I'm blaming I'm not blaming anything. I'm like, those are past situations that I never healed myself with therapy that wasn't therapy without diving deep and without doing shadow work. So, like all this unresolved hurt that I wasn't giving myself or remedying myself or getting proper help with was turning into control issues in our relationship because I couldn't deal with my own hurt. So, and you know what I mean? Like I was fearful of being that needy lover because the last thing I wanted was to be needy with you. So instead I was controlling with you, you know? Yeah, no, I agree. So, and I think that like using a different relationship aspect is like using your parents too. Like instead of like your parents like calling, you know, say you're going out with your friend and now it's like 10 o'clock and you're a teenager, and your parents calling, like, hey, I'm just calling to check in to make sure you're still fucking alive because one, you're my kid, and two, it's 10 o'clock on the Saturday, like I don't know where you are. And we were in that age group where we had those commercials. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know where you're kids? And like a half the time, no, my parents had no idea where I was. But that's the point. Well, that's the thing is like checking in every hour to say, Hey, get home now, or like, you know, you're grounded forever, or hey, I'm calling now to see where you are, you alive, you okay, just to pick up the phone and check in. And I think that there are two different ways that you can like really handle that. Where I think I had both ends of that spectrum because like my parents had so much leniency with me that they were like, go and do whatever. And then when they would call, when they all of a sudden tried to like enforce like boundaries with me, because boundaries are a part of healthy relationships, all of a sudden it became like a demand and a control on my part. And I was misinterpreting it the wrong way because, like you said before, wanting to receive that isn't always something that's possible. Reassurance and being obedient, there's a huge difference between asking for love and demanding obedience, right? So yeah, but like when you ask for when you ask for reassurance, for example, because I heard you say that word a few times. When you ask for reassurance, and you can do that in a relationship, a healthy relationship, but if you're always, then there's the line of like if you're always asking for reassurance, it's coming from a fear-based belief. There's something else going on there. Like you don't really need that much reassurance. And if you do, then that means like you're there's something that's not being just touched. Like you're you're afraid of something. You shouldn't need that much reassurance where it turns into obedience from your partner or your friend or whatever. It's showing like lack of trust or understanding. Right. It's showing lack of trust or fear. So that also goes into the next point is the unmet, the unmet needs that turn into controlling behaviors. So when needs are neglected, someone can feel unsafe. And then they will try to regain control. Yeah. To regain that safety feeling. Now, this is all subconscious, but let's start with like needs being neglected. Like, cause that you know what I love mason jars drinking water out of them. Okay, let's stay on topic. ADHD. ADHD, bipolar two. Oh my god. I feel like it's just like so like thirst quenching when you can take like a big gulp out of a mason jar. You're being such a slut for water right now. Um so needs being neglected. Let's start there because I feel like because people all have different needs, this can be like misinterpreted. So if someone's like, you know, we'll say, for example, I need more quality time in a relationship than you do. That's not necessarily true here, but I'm trying to think of like I need more quality time and I'm with a partner, or you're with a partner who doesn't necessarily need that they actually crave more independence. Right. Which actually is kind of true with us a lot. I think for you and I it switches on and off, but craving that independence. There are some people that are just independent lovers. There are, I'm gonna use the example of like an Aquarius and a Leo. Like they are just very independent people and they have independent lives from one another. It doesn't mean at the end of the day, they don't want to like lay in bed and talk about their days, they're just two independent people that enjoy their independence. So, like, there's nothing wrong with that because it doesn't turn into a boundary, it doesn't turn into controlling. The issue comes in where you have one partner who wants more, for example, I'm just gonna use these as examples. Like one partner wants more quality time and the other one creates more independence. Now, if there hasn't been a conversation where there is some kind of like meet in the middle, okay, like, well, this is how person A can still get their independence, but person B still feels like there's enough quality time being spent. And also, like you have to make sure it's not coming at a risk of like you who you are as a person. So like these compromises and stuff are are fine. But if you're like, yeah, this is absolutely like a non-negotiable for me, then like that's for you to figure out if this is the right relationship for you to be in, if you can't bend that direction. But anyway, when it comes to needs being neglected, we'll say neither of these people are really able to willing, like properly communicate or receive the other person's needs. And then we have Well, not being compatible is also a real thing, too. No, 100%. That's what I'm saying. I'm saying then you have to realize if this is even like the right relationship. Right. If this is the right spot for you, right? Yeah. But we'll say it is, and these people just haven't communicated properly. So we have person A who feels like being smothered by needing quality time from the other person and they don't feel like their independence is being respected. And then we have the other person who feels like their partner's pulling away from them all the time and doesn't want to spend time with them. Right. And if this isn't like addressed in a way where the other can receive it, that can cause honestly both partners to feel like unsafe in the relationship. Absolutely. And if then you don't feel like safe and secure, then you can kind of end up in this power dynamic where you're trying to regain control. So setting a boundary would be like having a conversation of like, hey, I know, like, you know, like these are things that matter to me. Like, hey, I know you really care about your independence, but I also need quality time to feel like we're in an actual partnership here. Like, how can we go about this? Versus just like the speed of life, yeah, going day to day and like noticing these trends and then emotionally trying to regain control. It's like a lot of this is like undercurrent type stuff. Well, that happens too. Like, and I'm gonna use like a bigger example, like say that there's cheating and stuff like that. Regaining boundaries and control in che what? I was yawning. Oh, I'm sorry. It's like when a kid stretches and it's like you're raising your hand, like I'm just stretching. But um when it comes to like cheating, like in the beginning when you first found out about my cheating, yeah, like and then before we met Shannon, of course, like there was a lot of like you saying, I don't want you to go to the gym for at the time, very good reason. And it was like because that's where I would go to see her and be around her and stuff like that. So there was a lot of like insecurity on your part for good reason. And lack of trust with you for sure. Lack of trust, but that's what I'm saying is that's where that power dynamic really came into play, too, because like that at the time made sense. I'm not saying it was a healthy sense, I'm saying at that time, that power dynamic, because of that betrayal, well, that was yeah, it was reinforced. So like your control was reinforced through that betrayal. Well, it's interesting because during that time it feels like we had a very clear, like black and white power dynamic. And before it was like out in the open that you had been cheating, like the power was like very clearly in your hands because like you came home and did whatever you came home whenever you wanted, you went out whenever you wanted, you like didn't really participate in the family. Like it was very much like you had the upper hand, and if I complained too much, then you would just leave. So it was like I get like punished for it. So when it switched and I found out and I knew I had the upper hand then, then I like re I didn't feel safe for so long that I reinforced all of that control where I was like, I can keep her here. Right. Yep. Because now she wants to stay. Okay, well then like I'm gonna make you show me that you want to stay. Yeah. And not in like the healthiest manner. Now I understand why Shannon was always like the punishment has to fit the crime and you're not doing that. And it's because it was like a control dynamic there. Right. And like I understand, you know, again, at the time, like it made sense that power control in that dynamic, like obviously, and then a healthy mindset. And an unhealthy, I was gonna say in an unhealthy mindset. Yeah, and then um, because like you said, it happens after unresolved issues. So that was a huge unresolved issue where that power dynamic was switching. Right. And sometimes, you know, control is just fear wearing a louder voice. Yeah. So like the fear was there for you of saying, like, I don't want you to leave. But obviously it's gonna come across in this loud voice of like, you stay here now. Oh, yeah. Because I because I get to call the shots now. So, like, so instead of like me, and I wasn't in the place to like express vulnerability to you to be like, hey, and they don't blame you. Like, I'm not gonna lie, no, no, no, no, I know. Again, we weren't in a good keep in mind if we were in a healthy place, like this wouldn't have even gotten this far. So, like, but then keep in mind, like, this kind of stuff is very easy for people to slip into. Right. It's very easy to slip into unhealthy dynamics, like life comes at you hard and fast, and in every every day and every day is just a lot to keep up with. So these things can very easily become like undercurrents. Um, but I wasn't in the position to express vulnerability to you. So that's where it was easier to become more of a control dynamic. And I also felt like you'd respond more than to that than if I felt like I could if I was going to be vulnerable in that situation, I felt like it was gonna keep the power dynamic where you were on top. Because this is what happens when there's vulnerability and partners aren't respecting each other. Absolutely. And there was no respect. No, so there was no respect from from either of us, which again fear from both of us, fear from every angle when it came to that. But I'm glad that you brought in like the question of boundaries, just because boundaries are boundaries can be viewed and skewed as controlling.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

So I feel like you had something to say. No, I'm stretching. Oh, okay. Um so like asking asking certain things, like certain say I'm I just keep using reassurance because it's the first thing that comes to mind. But is this uh something that is for connection or is this for compliance? Yeah, like same with quality time though. Right. But is this for gift giving or any other things really? Is this is this to show me that you care about me, or is this because you care about it? I'm gonna need you to elaborate. I get connection or compliance. Do you want to give me the gift or am I making you give me the gift? Oh, 100%. You know what I mean? Like, like or do you want to spend time with me, or do you even feel like there's gonna be a punishment or something associated if you don't spend the time with me? Right, well, right. And I remember Shannon once said, like, I think it was around Valentine's dynamic. Not this year, but the year previous to this, you left the room to go to the bathroom or you left the room to get a drink of water or something like that. And she turned to me and she was like, After this session, is she going to? I forgot the word that she used, but basically like, Hold this over your head. Hold this over my head. She was like, Is she gonna hold this over your head? And like I was like, I don't think after this session, but there are sessions that she does hold it over my head. And Shannon had a very good way of coming at it. I'm gonna say through the back door, to basically be like, you can't act like that, Lauren. Like, there's no punishment for her just trying and not understanding. And like, I'm glad that she said it in the way that she did, and I'm glad that that question did get brought up because that was one of the scariest questions when it came to compliance or connection. If it's gonna be held over your head afterwards. Because, like, because I got you that necklace, and like I know that you're not a jewelry person, but it was the golden snitch necklace. Yeah. And like I was so happy to get that for you because like I wanted to get that for you. Because I remember, I don't know, we were watching Ciesta Key, and you were like, Oh, G Baby has like a and you were like, That's so cool though, because it's like so dainty, and it's like just like a cool little thing, like if you know, you know. And like I was so happy to remember that and like so happy in that moment because we were like doing you know what I mean? We were just in the beginning of couples therapy and we were just doing better and stuff like that. And I wanted to do it for connection, and I could see how it could have come across as compliance because again, we were so new in couples therapy. I didn't ask you for it though. So No, no, no, no. It it um it could have come across as compliance because the because again, we were so new in couples therapy, and two the the boundary that you put in place where show me that you want to be here. Yeah, that was a boundary. So and gift giving is a love language of mine. So like that's how I knew how to present. So that is where that like boundary line could have been skewed as a demand versus a boundary. So I'm glad that she brought that into play. But also, like you said, like there's there's bound when you say questions of boundaries, like can you yeah, like elaborate on on what do you mean by that? Because I know before we talked about the difference between boundaries and uh control, and like, you know, text me when you get home versus like I expect you to text me X amount of times a day or like you know, answer within this time frame type thing. So like what do you mean by questions of boundaries? Um like if we go to, and again, I'm gonna use as an example, like if we go to a party and I'm not by your side the entire time and we're both off doing something together, a control thing would be you have to be by my side the whole time. A boundary thing would be, hey, just check in with me, like so I know that like you're still here, kind of like like so I know you're not outside, so I know you're not like I don't know. Like, so I know I can find you at this fucking party, basically. You know, boundaries versus control. Or hey, you're out with your buddies, cool, just like text me around like 10 so I know that like you're safe and you're not dead. Like go have fun with your friends, just text me so I know that you're not fucking dead. You know? No, I agree. Versus the text I'm reflecting on all the times that I was like, don't leave my side at stuff. So yeah, and the same, but same for me though. But it's coming from a place of like like you said, like insecurity. Because like I knew you were my safe person, so it's like it's crazy how we can like justify like the things the the actions of control though. Um, because not every boundary is healthy, some are just ultimatums with better PR. I love it. So if we so for example, if I'm like, like you said, like the um don't leave my side at a party. I know it's like, well, you know, I have social anxiety, so like don't leave my side at this party. Like that's a huge control act. And yeah, but like in my head, it's like a boundary of like, well, if you're my partner, you should like want me to be safe. But again, that's why I'm like not all of them are healthy, they're ultimatum's with PR better PR. So like But like it's very easy. My point is, and I'm not, I know not only do I do this, do you do this? It's very easy in general to do this, where it's almost like you're justifying of course you're gonna justify the control, and then and like you're able to skew it in a way where it's like, well, this is actually what I mean by that. Well, if you love me, you'll do it. Not even just if you love me, you'll do it, but like this is what I mean by that. Like you're my partner, you're supposed to be supporting me. You know I have social anxiety, you were in a very like obscene scenario. Like, I I'm not comfortable. Like, why shouldn't you want to show up for me in this way? And that is true to an extent. Right. But I would take it too far where it was like I think the way that you're saying it is fair, and I'm gonna bring into this. I also didn't have the conversation with you of like there's a lot of like when there's a lot of assumptions too that leaves a lot of room for control at verse it being a boundary. Yeah. I also think that like so a few years ago, I think it was our first Thanksgiving together. I came over a few years ago. You've been with me for like eight years, girl. And I'll just tell you a few years ago was our first Thanksgiving together, like a decade ago. Yeah, like a decade ago. I came over with an apple pie. You're old, girl. We're we're old. Shut up. Um 27, 27, 27 forever. Um I remember I came over and like I was upset with you because like you didn't answer my text to answer the front door, but it was also the first time that I came to your house to meet your family. Was it on Thanksgiving the first time we came? No, but it was like it was the second time because the first time was Memorial Day. Memorial Day. But the second time was Thanksgiving, and I was like, why don't you come to the door? Like it's your family, like you have to basically come and get me so I can stay by your side. So, like, that's something where everything gets a little blurred because I can understand the person wanting to be like, hey, like happy Thanksgiving, but I can also understand like, yeah, but you have already met these people, so it should be fine. And well, that's again, that's where the communication comes in, okay. Where it's like, you could have told me, like, hey, when I show up, I'm gonna text you because like this is only the for my comfort, it's the only second time I'm meeting them. I want like you to bring me in. And that should have been communicated. But instead, like it was like Thanksgiving, like my phone was fucking god knows where, and I was just like fucking around. You just like throw it out the window. You're like, I don't need this. I have a I have a very large history of throwing my phone, so you do flashbacks to like teenage years like throwing it in a bush, like somewhere. Like eventually it was found, so but whatever. But but yeah, my point is if you had the conversation, it wouldn't have been control, it would have been a boundary. But you're just showing up and being like, Why didn't you text me back? It has made me a little crazy if you ask me. Why didn't you walk me in? Like, yeah, why didn't exactly why I didn't know I was fucking supposed to. I don't know, girl. I'm too fucking whatever this drink is in, and I haven't eaten anything today. So you told me why I didn't know I was supposed to, and then it like puts the other person on the defense where it's like uh uh uh breaks. But then it turns into like a fear thing, and now you're both afraid, and now you're just like, yeah, whatever. But I like what you said about the PR. I thought that was like Well, and then like you the PR. Yeah. Well, another, I guess, like two big differences too. Like, is it a feeling or are you trying to manage this person? Right. Because when it comes to control, it's never really about not it's never about the other person, but a lot of the times it has to do primarily with you. Yeah, yeah. So do you feel like if you don't have X influence, then you're going to lose like the outc desired outcome type of thing? If so, that's more control-based versus like a feeling you can communicate and be like, hey, when this happens, it makes me feel this way. And like again, hopefully you have a partner that's gonna have a respective receptive receptive and respective like response. And if not, then again, you need to ask if you're in the right place. Right. You need to ask yourself if you're right with the right person. Because if this person is then getting defensive after you've communicated your needs, after you've communicated your needs, and they you know turn on you and say, like, well, what the fuck? Oh, I do this all the time, kind of thing. Like, you really have to like ask yourself, like, but then it's like then it's like that's another control thing where it's like you're holding things that you do over the other person's head for leverage. Right I'm using that as an example. Like what I'm saying is if the person becomes reactive to you being vulnerable, that's the part where you have to question if you're in the right relationship. Yeah. That's all I'm saying. Or like, and again, there's a lot of different like this is very baseline. Yeah. Because keep in mind, like, everyone, there's no relationship is perfect, and everyone shows up with their own history. And are you able to are you able to forgive? Well, yeah, I was gonna say, are you willing, willing and able to like learn this person? And then to be if there has been some type of betrayal or cheating or whatever, are you not just like willing to forgive? Can you? Can yeah, I was gonna say, like, because being like and can you, because maybe there's plenty of times people go in with the intention of like forgiving. Yeah. Or not even forget, like, not forgetting, but forgiving. Yeah. And at that point, though, if they get to the point where they they can't, right, then you also have to be realistic with yourself and like if you can or cannot. And everyone's different in that aspect. There's no like right answer across the board. Yeah, no, right and wrong is so arbitrary when it comes to relationships because everyone is so But then even if you can forgive and start to rebuild that trust so that it can be more of an so that vulnerability can start to be expressed and built upon as like a foundation, then will it make a difference if you do forgive? Like, is this person someone who's going to rebuild with you? Or is this something where it's going to become a vicious cycle of like, I forgive and they keep taking? Right. And again, this is not an across the board answer, but also recognize patterns too on both ends. Like, because you, you know, your partner may be the problem, you may be the problem, you both may be the problem. Right. And like, not to like promote like couples counseling, but like it's done wonders for us. And I truly believe that every couple needs counseling at some point because there are just hard times in life that like like every person needs every person needs therapy. I'm pro-therapy though. Like I'm pro-choice, but I'm pro-therapy. But like it it's just that like you need, even if it's just a sounding board at times, you need to know that you know, you're not always fucking right. And like you need you need a licensed professional to fucking tell you that. Yeah, because I'll be real quick to make sure that I skew things in a way where it looks like I'm right. I'm very same's though. Yeah, I know. We're both very good at that. Yeah. But that leads us into our final point of what healthy, what healthy repair actually looks like. Yeah, good point. I was gonna say we've talked a lot about the unhealthy. Yeah, but like when you want to repair things, like I don't know, let's use let's use you and I for an example. And our recent Well, this is an easy one, yeah. Well, what I'm saying is let's use our most recent um therapy session with Shannon. I have to learn to be more vulnerable with you about the things that have happened to me and why it really cut off like my vulnerability to you. Like in early days. In early days, right. And like it's not fair that like there are certain lights that were turned off from you when it came to vulnerability because it wasn't just hindering you or me, it was hindering us. And that's not fair to you in a way that I want to rebuild. You know what I mean? And you want to be receptive to it. And there are plenty of times that people get to this point in their relationships where they just don't one, they don't care because too much life has happened. And two, like they don't see the point in it because they've gone this far in. But that's where resentments also build too. So you don't like stop caring without having some form of resentments being on the back burner somewhere. You know what I mean? You realize how much energy you're giving to like these resentments, this work that's not really work. Well, when you say like what healthy repair looks like to um vulnerability is scary. So being transparent without surveillance. Yeah. Cause it's like if you're gonna be so transparency is also again, these things are hard because like you there this is a lot of gray area because control can be transparent. It can be yeah, but it doesn't make it healthy, it doesn't make it any less controlling, right? So it's so that's why we're saying without the surveillance. Um but I also think that you know, accountability when it comes to that too. Uh-huh. Like accountability of being controlling accountability of taking that control. Okay. And also accountability in your like without humiliation, to say the least. That's a big one because um humiliation is a huge Well, I know we talked about it in the last episode where I brought up the example of in episode fifth 15. Sure. I'm like, what where are we? Um who am I where I mentioned that you were coming up to me after at an event we were at and you had pissed me off from afar and you didn't know that, of course. But instead of me being like, hey, this like you know made me feel this way, I immediately go, Can I help you? Yeah. So instead of um so when you say accountability without humiliation, like not that. Like not like not that, being able to be like, okay, like this is how I feel. Or also if you're telling me something, like, hey, when you do this, this is how like I interpret it, right? Without me being like, oh my God, get over it. You're being sensitive. And I know like these are examples that we hear a lot, but also it's very truthful. It's very truthful, and it's also very easy to discount someone if you're already at capacity too. Either if you're over this person, you have a lot of resentments, or if you're physically at your own capacity, taking in someone else's needs can feel overbearing. Absolutely. But healing doesn't happen when one person loses freedom, it happens when both people feel safe telling the truth. Well, yeah. So losing so yeah, so losing freedom. Um, that's interesting. Healing doesn't happen when one person loses freedom, it happens when both people feel safe telling the truth.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

So what do you mean loses freedom? If I wouldn't feel like I'm losing something if it meant we were rebuilding our relationship.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

Me uh texting you saying, Hey, I'm leaving the gym is because I'm saying I want you to know I'm 20 minutes away and I'm rebuilding this. Okay. We're rebuilding this versus versus hey, I'm leaving the gym for you to start the clock to say, all right, bitch, that's 20 minutes to get home. Yeah. Or else what's she doing? You know? No, that makes okay, that I needed that elaboration. That makes perfect sense. And then you said like both people feeling safe telling the truth. So then having that vulnerability to be like, Absolutely, hey, it really matters a lot when you text me, so I know you'll be home in about X amount of time. Yeah. So or yeah, or I mean, uh anything, but even like we have a little chart now where we give each other stickers. Right. You know, I like my stickers. I like my stickers too. We did so good this week. I we did this week. We each got one. Well, you got two because you got me a latte. I did. So um did you even drink it? I did drink it. Why see that was controlling? See that like um shit. I gave you a game. I was like, see that, see that was you were like idiot. It's not what I said. But feeling safe telling the truth. So, like the fear of being perceived here can be really hard too. So being able to like know that this is a person you're supposed to trust, you're supposed to be building a life with. Right. So if you're afraid of them perceiving you, is it your own insecurities and or is it their role in the relationship? That's a really good point. Also, that's a really good point. So um, but yeah, vulnerability sucks. That's basically that's basically it. Like we in conclusion, vulnerability sucks. Because it does. How many, how many times like do it we start doing like we start saying something, and it's like I have to I have to like really slow down and be like, what am I trying and I'll even stop and say, I don't know how this is coming out, but this is what I'm trying to relay to you. And I feel like that's helped a lot because sometimes the way I communicate isn't it's become the way it's received, it's become a lot easier the more that it's practiced, that's for sure. But I also think that came with the trust that I wanted to build with you. So, like, not saying that I didn't trust you, it's that I didn't trust anybody with me. No, you didn't trust me. That's okay. You said you said straight up, I trust her with my life, but I don't like trust her. Right. What I mean is like some people, it's very difficult to get their deep throat secrets, to say the least. And like finding out that I was groomed and taken advantage of, like, I found this out six months ago. Like, I didn't even know that happened. So to be vulnerable and have therapy sessions with you to be like this happened to me, like I it's so scary to think like you're the only one that knows. Well, you were the only one that knows that. But like I was like, what do you mean? Forgetting that we're being recorded, we're recording this right now, um, live from our living room. But um, that's the thing is that like expressing that vulnerability, like it's a fucking shitstorm. But like I have to say that that payoff of being vulnerable with the person that I trust, like it reinforces that I'm safe with you. And like, I love you, little honey. It builds closeness. It builds closeness for sure. But also that has to do with like how I respond. If I didn't respond by being like, I'm here to listen, I appreciate you being vulnerable with me. Like, I want you to feel you're receptive. Or like, you know, and I was prompted to ask questions, but like, you know, asking questions when appropriate or when appropriate is always a good way to say that. Yep. Like these are things that help your partner know that you're there to be supportive rather than it's practice. It's definitely practice and it's hard work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

Yeah, vulnerability sucks. Well any conclusive? Any conclusion? That was that was my conclusion. That was your conclusion? Alrighty. My conclusion is just try. Just give it your best and really self-evaluate if this is the place that you need to be. Wow, that was Shakespearean.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

I actually wrote that inside of a fortune cookie. Don't know where to go. No, of course, try, but also this is why we say counsel like therapy or counseling can be helpful because it's it's easy to have your own blind spots. You can ask anybody, I'm it's easier to justify your bullshit. Yeah, I I'm the queen of justifying my bullshit and having blind spots. So that's why we say, of course, try. Yeah. But if you need a third-party perspective too, no one to yeah, no one to loop that in if that's a resource available. Well, thank you guys for tuning in and thanks for being patient. And we will talk to you next week. Two next week, two weeks. Two weeks. I'm so sorry. I I don't know what a calendar is. All right, see you later.