SPEAKER_01 0:01

On Vicky. I almost said I'm Vicky. I'm Lauren. No, no, we're not doing this again. I'm Vicky. And I'm Lauren. Welcome to you all on Pet. Don't forget to text your best friend back. So so we watched, we're horror movie fanatics. We watched Obsession last night. It was really, really fucking good. I wasn't expecting it to be as good as it was. I'm not gonna lie. I'm gonna say what I said last night that Blumhouse or Gloomhouse, however you pronounce it, was like pissed about A24 having this huge comeback over the last couple years and was like, hold my beer. Yeah. Hold my fucking beer and dominate it. Like I don't remember the last time. I love that thriller with the thriller that I just like held my breath that like the entire time. It was so good. We won't the actress, I don't know her name. I don't think I've ever seen her in anything, but she nailed it like for what it's like to be like I don't know, an obsessed partner. You know what I mean? Yeah. And then I scared you after because I was doing a couple things that she did, and you're like, you know, this is just like the movie, right? And I was like, you know, you put a spell on me, right? You're really gonna air me out like that. We're literally about to air out something so much worse, though. It's the the little witchcraft spell that you put on me eight years ago was a problem, but threesomes are not a problem. No, that's that's where the line is drawn in the sand. I do think it was cool how they like directed it to be like dark and eerie. And like what and I said it like the other day that I like that these like new horror movies are not coming out as like monster movies or slasher movies, they're coming out as natural horror, like day-to-day things, like the movie Hereditary. Um, what was the other one? What was hereditary? I can't remember that one. Well, I guess that was more like occult stuff, yeah. But it's not it wasn't necessarily like monster-based, yes, you know, or uh midsummer. Like it wasn't it wasn't monster-based or or slasher-based or gore-based. It was more like I could find myself in this situation under the wrong circumstances, like terror. Yeah, you know what I mean? It wasn't necessarily horror, it was more of terror. And I think that's isn't that thriller or no? I like to see them as two separate things. Thriller is more like suspense. I think we're I think we're mushing genres here. I'm okay with that. I think it's for what it is. You're like my definitions are better. Yeah, but I do think that obsession was more like terror because I think that those are more realistic. Everyone has a crazy ex. And I think that that was a really good example. Yo, you are the crazy ex, aren't you? No, no, I was thinking about the time when I met you, and you're like, I'm when we were friends, and you were like, I my ex is so crazy. And I was like, first of all, she was. No, I can't, I know, but at first I remember being like, she was okay. And third of all, I remember being like, okay, like up to everyone, so I'm sure she was so crazy, and you had nothing to do with it. Like not a single fucking thing. And she's crazy on her own. She was actually, yeah, because then when she showed up at your apartment, like nine months after you guys broke up without being in contact. It was like a solid nine months ago. Yeah. Then I was like, I think I looked at you after you called the cops, and I was like, All right, I believe you now. Thank God we had that plan now. I just remember the cop looking at me and being like, She's writing a note. Do you want the note? And I was like, officer, would you want the note? And he just looked at me like, just answer the question. She's writing a note. Like, no, I don't want the fucking note. I'm not gonna put it on my fridge or anything. Officer doofus, take it with you. Dear Sam. Exactly. Dear Sam. So speaking of relationships as always, speaking of rage bait and terror. Range bait. Yes, actually, that's even better. Speaking of rage, bait, and terror. It brings us to today's topic. It's gonna spark opinions. Um, but like I said, apparently threesomes are on the table, but your witchcraft is not. So we're gonna be talking about we're gonna talk about open relationships, uh, but not in the way you think we're gonna talk about open relationships. It's not gonna be a conversation about whether polyamory or open relationships is right or wrong. It's more about what happens when people hope opening a relationship is gonna fix problems that already exist or distract heavily enough from problems that already exist. Yeah. And that reason is which we've which we've done. And that's because openness doesn't replace trust and it doesn't replace honesty. And it definitely doesn't replace communication. So we're unpacking jealousy, hidden resentment, broken agreements, and why relationship structures don't solve problems, but people do. I definitely think that people mix and match openness with trust, though. Well, we did. Well, exactly. When people say I'm gonna be more open with my partner, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm gonna be more open with myself, my private things, the things I should be sharing. It means that I'm gonna be more open with exploring different options of the world and hopefully my partner tags along with me so I can feel more complete with my partner. Yeah, I agree with that. And that's troublesome. It it is. And also, too, like with open relationships, there's nothing wrong with like two people deciding to have an open relationship or be polyamorous. What we're saying is like if that is occurring because of something deeper going on, totally, which is which can be easy for people to mix up because we did. We were like, oh, this is a way to show, like, I don't know. We were like, we trust each other. So, like, right, it was why not? It was like trust. Yeah, instead of being like, why are we feeling the need to show trust in this way? Because clearly there is wasn't trust in some other aspects that wasn't being addressed. So, just to be clear, there's nothing wrong with having an open relationship if that works for you and it's not covering up something underneath the surface. No, and I definitely think that polyamory is I think polyamory, if it works for your relationship, it can absolutely work in real life. There are plenty of functioning relationships of people that have three plus people in their relationship, or it's just an open relationship where it's you go do you, I go do me, and we are open about everything. We just come home to each other and there's certain rules and boundaries in place, and that's anything that works for the relationship. I absolutely think it's you know, able to work. I also am not, I don't know if I can be on board with it in my relationship. I always I'm a big believer in if you're not hurting yourself or somebody else, go for it. Yeah, you know what I mean. But with us, it was more about like I know one of the bigger topics like in this has to do with jealousy. That's what I was thinking. Like it, you know, the first topic is like, is this like is this jealousy that's turning toxic? Or vice versa. Isn't jealousy toxic? It could be that's a bigger question to ask. Do you think that jealousy was toxic? Because we were brought that question by Shannon when she said, you know, you shouldn't be jealous. When we were at a wedding and I was off talking to somebody and you were off talking to somebody, is jealousy a toxic trait? Or should you be comfortable with your partner talking to and doing whatever with whoever? So do I don't think it's I think like the way you go about displaying it can be toxic, myself included. I agree with that. I think you can have feelings and they can encompass jealousy because you're still a human being. Yeah. But overall, like you should trust your partner and the way you communicate your jealousy should not be the way I communicate. Right. Like the way that well, I remember in the beginning of our relationship when we would be jealous of one another, or we would be jealous of the things that were happening if you went to go talk to a random guy at a bar and me, you know, puffing my chest out and saying I'm jealous and stuff like that. Why did I go talk to a random guy at a bar if it wasn't for drinks or something? Well, I mean for both of us. Fair point. I'm using this as an example. Like if a random dude would come up to you and start talking to you or something like that, and then we would go back to my place and bang it out in the bedroom because that jealousy would bring heat to the bedroom. You know what I mean? So is jealousy toxic in the way that it brings heat to the bedroom, or we're reusing it as heat in the bedroom? We're reusing it to perpetuate a sexual activity. Probably the latter. Right. So, do you think that jealousy can be toxic or is toxic? Like, is it like do you think I think it's a teeter cotter? Yeah, I was gonna say, like, I I think it's a teeter cotter. Um, I'm gonna stick with like it's the way you display it. And like again, more so about um like how you communicate that jealousy or like what you're using because we like did use it. We basically like used it to fuel. Use it as fuel, yeah. Yeah, we used it to like fuel our sex life, and which I guess, like, I guess it's not healthy, but like it was cool, so whatever. We were all so young. Fuck it. I was just like, I had a good time, but like I guess technically speaking, yeah, that's toxic way to do so. It did start to like it's like anything else, like we start it's like starting to push the envelope, right? Like it, like you know, level one was probably like not the worst thing in the world, and it just kept getting like pushed further and further down the line. And that's probably, yeah, like, and like when you open up anything, like when you open up anything and it can turn toxic, finding that borderline is like, should I even be finding a borderline kind of thing? Like, well, that's the other part is that jealousy can go into this now like rabbit hole, right? So it's the jealousy spiral of like stalking somebody or spying on them via social media or you know, I don't know, spying on their new partner or whatever the case is. So when it gets to those levels, do you like to me? I think that people need to stop themselves, but when they're not in the right headspace because they're so obsessive about what's going on, it really brings to light like what jealousy can do. Well, jealousy is not necessarily the problem as much as it is the messenger, right? It's like a signal that there's something else going on, like an insecurity with yourself, your relationship, your partner, like some something is happening there. So when we opened up the relationship, I I don't want to say there was jealousy at first. I think for us it was more like we were lacking trust in an area, right? And I think we were like, that'll bring us closer because we can trust each other in this aspect. Right, right, right. Then we really can trust each other in every aspect, which actually isn't necessarily true. No, far from. Yeah. But like our assumption was that we also used our bodies it for lack of a better word, we used our bodies as monetary objects. Yeah. Because we used it in a way, right, right? So we used it in a monetary way that really described how we could pay each other back because that's what mattered most to us at the time. What do you can you elaborate? Yes, but can you elaborate on that? We were so driven by everything else going on in our lives that we knew that monetary value was what we could give each other. Yeah. And that's what value we put on each other and value we put on ourselves to make sure that our relationship was going to thrive. And we thought adding more value, another body, was gonna heighten our relationship and give it more value when really it did the exact opposite because it really stripped a lot of our trust. It brought to light a lot of my gender issues. It highlighted a lot of the cracks that were already there. Definitely, for sure. So jealousy for me, I think I was way more jealous when we opened up the relationship. I was way more jealous when I came out of my manic state to bring to light all the issues I really had with bringing, because we brought two men into our relationship. Yeah, because we had already agreed that women were off the table for that. For other jealousy reasons. For other jealousy reasons, yeah. And we were thinking, like, well, neither of us are gonna end up with this dude, whoever it may be. And we just kind of like jumped on the idea that, like, well, okay, it's gotta be a dude. And that again brought away a lot of gender issues for me because it was a dude. I I like that you brought up the gender issues because with an open relationship, it only works when honesty is bigger than temptation, but also it sounds like you weren't fully being honest with yourself. That's exactly what was happening. I was never honest with myself when it came to my body dysmorphia. So I know that we talked about body dysmorphia and women and stuff like that. And I always thought that I was never skinny enough, I was never strong enough, I never had the muscle texture or the the body. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, the body, the the jawline, the works, right? I never thought that I had that. When I really took a step back after our second threesome, and he was this hot surfer boy, you know what I mean? And I stepped back to like realize his body type, and I was like, oh my God, it has nothing to do with my jealousy with my wife, seeing my wife with a man, it has everything to do with how I see myself in the mirror. And realizing top surgery was something that caused my body dysmorphia. And body dysmorphia is something that really is not perpetuating, but I'm realizing more about myself because I'm because of that, because of this threesome. That is, I feel like where it like spiked some of your like self-reflection on how your, like you said, like your awareness of your gender and how you view yourself. Right. And then bringing it up with you was also a scary topic, too. Yeah. So when it comes to like secrets and lies and stuff like that, I was definitely lying to myself. I was lying to you. I felt like I was being really deceitful with trying to almost like if I could conquer sleeping with a man, I felt like I could obtain that body type or something like that. It was like a but not like a poss like a possessiveness kind of thing. Like if you could do that, it would make you feel more like one. Yeah. Almost, is that what you're saying? Yeah, yeah. It felt and it and that's how it really felt was stepping away from the whole situation. I felt like my brain was scrambled eggs in so many ways. Yeah, you seemed really fucked up after. Yeah, and I, you know, I am happy that I had like the basic talks with therapy that I've had now, and I'm happy I can go deeper into it. But I was definitely lying to you about my gender and my issues with that, and I was definitely lying to myself first and foremost, because I never gave myself the opportunity to do that. Um, yeah, I was gonna say, what do you mean lying? Oh, just like about like what you just explained. So I felt like there was like a lot of like anxiety and depression. You know what I mean? There was anxiety and depression with our three sons, and it came nothing from I wanna say it did not come from jealousy, but it came from jealousy of seeing the body type that I wanted to be. So when I speak about gender like that, did you have like seeing I mean on the very basic level, did you have jealousy seeing me with a man? Like I was so lost at that time, ironically. Like I actually, this is gonna sound insane, and I almost like hope no one resonates with this, but someone probably will. Because you had been with more men than I had, which is interesting since I'm bisexual. Um it wasn't fun. Serial, serial, serial monogamous, I guess, on my end. I felt like it wasn't left up to my imagination anymore. Like what your experiences were like, I guess. Cause like I'm so I was so insecure, not now, but like I was so insecure about like you and your like experiences and like who you've been with, and da-da-da-da. Like I'd have like, you know, like I'd like pick unfortunately I'd like picture it, which is like really unhealthy. Oh, okay. So I feel like it almost like left less up to the imagination being there and experiencing it with you. And to me, being in the room and experiencing it with you was supposed to feel like a bonding experience, kind of. Okay. Um, so I don't want to say I was jealous as much as I kind of feel like it subdued the jealousy that I had made up in my own head. Okay. But you sound like you're like, oh no, no, I get where you're I I'm letting that process. Okay. Because I think that that it absolutely makes sense because it's really sick to like say it, but no, I don't think it is. It's you're not gonna like this, uh god. It's like watching a movie versus reading a book. When you read the book, you have your own imagination to make up the storyline, but when you have the movie of somebody else's imagination, so it's the reality versus imagination. So me being and you visually seeing that process of unfortunately accepting a wiener inside of me. Oh I think it left, like you said, less up to your imagination, being like, okay, like I guess I really wasn't missing out because this is exactly what I thought it was. Well, you would tell me, but I like didn't believe you. Like, but also I told you it wasn't good. I know, but like I just I think that's also part of the problem, too, is that like and a performance of that. Yeah, my God, you were so wasted every time. Like, so anyway, very perfect. Um yeah, but yeah. But with that being said, too, like we changed the rules, and changing the rules doesn't heal broken trust. And I think coming into the relationship so insecure on my end, there was like a lack of foundational trust there from the start. And I'm not saying that you had anything to do with it or not. I just think like having a fear-based trauma response is like almost self-sabotagey in a way. Cause like this was by no means a good idea, but like, but like my brain will like convince me that really bad ideas are really good ideas to like to like you give yourself. Yeah, to like cover, like it's just it just the the mathematics behind it or the data behind it doesn't make sense. But it's like in my head, it's like, well, like I just kind of said, for example, it leaves it less up to the imagination or if I can trust her in this setting, um, then I can trust them in any setting. And like that, it doesn't, but it's not solving the insecurity problem at the bottom, which is you, me. Yeah. And also like however I was wasn't trusting you in the relationship at the time. Like, because maybe I know from our past experiences and what we've talked about here, I didn't feel like I could trust you in other aspects to be there for me. No. I think that makes perfect sense. I think that makes I think that really checks the boxes with that answer. Did you practice that answer? No, I did not. That just came to me. No, that really just handled that. Yeah, no, that was good. That was really, really good. Um, do you think that there was betrayal for either of us that came from inviting somebody else into our relationship? I had confusion about one of them, honestly. Um, the surfer one. I had confusion about that one because I remember going on vacation with you and being like, I don't want to do anything. Like, I don't want to do anything. Like I'm exhausted. Like I don't and I was and you were manic. So I was like, I we wanted to go on this vacation to like recharge. So when you had brought it up to me, like, oh, I was like, oh, okay. Like I could have said no and like shut it down, but I think like I didn't want to be the like, I didn't want to be the loser in our relationship. And I also didn't want the last one to be the last one because that was just horrible. I think that's so that was like a bad taste in my mouth. That's where my mind was at, though, because you had repeated that to me so many times that the first one you were like, I need to forget about this. Yeah, I don't regret anything in my life but that. And I need to basically like wipe away the board and like do something new. And I was like, this is a fine-looking specimen, why not? Yeah, and then you ended up getting like really fucked up from it afterwards. Yes, fucked up. You know, I really like to see it as darkest before the dawn because now I know that I'm getting chest surgery.

unknown 20:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Reconstruction surgery, and I feel fantastic about that idea. Right. But at the time, I feel like the jealousy from that did turn toxic. Like you were very, you had made it very clear you were very jealous of this person's like body type. That's true, yeah. And then like you projected your insecurities into that too. Okay. Yep. I did, because I didn't understand what I was feeling, so I projected it onto you as jealousy when really it was just jealousy, it was body dysmorphia coming out as jealousy, and it had nothing to do with you actually being with this person or physically being with this person. So it, you know, it really does stir up the emotion of where was that jealousy coming from? And was it anger towards you, myself? Was it body dysmorphia? Was it all of these things? And you know, it was really D all of the above. So I think changing the structure of that relationship though, to add another person didn't change the problems inside of it, which was at the end of the day, my own insecurities with myself in our relationship and your own insecurities with yourself when in a relationship. So if someone is to be in like a polyamoro amorous relationship or just bring a third person into the bedroom, um, again, it's not that it can't be done, but like you have to have a really strong foundation to have that done successfully and like in a like right calm, peaceful manner where it's not disrupting anybody. Right. And we did not have that. And we also had boundaries, kind of, kind of, like, but like not really. Like, I think with like actual open relationships, they have like boundaries of you can do what you like. For example, you can do what you want, I can do what I want, but we aren't hiding any like there's no like feelings that get involved, or um, you don't spend more than like two times with the same person. Like, I don't know, you know what I mean? Like stuff like that. And then with polyamory, it's like I'm sure there has to be some type of boundaries on like favoritism, or like how many, how much these people contribute if they are like all living together, or like things like that, that it makes who sleeps in the bed, right? Like it makes it more even where we were just kind of like, this is a great idea. I feel like really bad, and I feel like this will make me feel better. And it's kind of giving the same energy, but thankfully not as long-term results as we should have a baby, this will make it feel better, or just like like this will be this will make it better. This will fix that gaping hole inside. So yeah. Again, it can be done. We just didn't do it the right way. Right. So that also, like, I don't know, because because we didn't do it the right way, I think that like brings to light like the fact that it's like sex addiction, recklessness, and mania, right? So, like, yeah, we were being well, I didn't have mania. No, I was tired. Yes, but we were also very like reckless with because you were where you were mentally with me because I was manic and like there were clear resentments because of my mania, and I was out of work at that time. So I feel like it brought to light like this not give a shit behavior and not give a shit for you, for me, for a relationship. And it was just like let's see how we can fix this as far as recklessness. Right, right. And that's like you know, threesomes, right? But on the other end of things, there's like swinging. Yeah, yeah. You have more experience in swinging than I do. Why? Because of my job. Yeah, yeah. If anyone, if anyone needs a book, um, or just like a good example of like like polyamorous or like swinging or like relationships gone south, um read or audiobook, Swing by Ashley Renard. I'll put that in the notes. Phenomenal. Um, amazing book and also Wildly articulate. Wildly articulate, but it gets beyond if you the point of the book isn't necessarily the swinging itself, it's like the depth of the things that were not being addressed in the relationship that came out in this way, and that's what we're trying to drive home. So that would be a really good. I listened to the audiobook in like four hours. So like the binge listen to it. So it's an easy read or listen. Um, so I'll link that in the show notes. What were some of the things that like you got from like listening to the book? Was it like like I didn't like listen to it as in depth as you did? I think I listened to it twice. I know that's why I'm saying, like, I so what did you what did you take away from swinging? Because from what I understand from it, it's that you know, there's a full agreement, but to me from the outside, like I'm just an emotional creature, so I know I could never be swinging. But yeah, the first thing was they had some boundaries like laid out. What were they? Um, which was like, well, they both kind of agreed that, like, first that they had said, like, in not quote for quote, so don't quote me on this, but not word for word, but they had essentially said that like if something happened out one night and it was a mistake, they wouldn't want to hear about it. So like it wasn't so much it was more so because it wasn't emotional based, like it was okay, not like okay, but like that's the opening conversation that kind of led them this direction. That and can you explain that a little bit more? I don't think I'm understanding. So, you know how for you and I, like a boundary would be like if you up, I want to know about it. And that's why one of the reasons when you stepped out, I was so like crushed because I was like, we agreed to this thing. And then again, I realized through therapy, like, why that wasn't realistic at the time, blah, blah, blah. But for them, it was the opposite. If anything physical had happened and it was like a one-off thing, they wouldn't want the other one to like, they didn't, they didn't want to know about it, basically. So that like opened up the door of like this can be physical and not emotional, and it can be like okay. Okay. And the reason it started going, one of the many reasons, and this is again as a listener's perspective, because her she's much more articulate, is that um they had gotten into like the rut of married life. Like it was very much like tag teaming life. It was like she was working, um, and like, you know, a skate, a skating rank organization, and like he was working, and then it was just like who's tapping in to take care of the kids, who's tapping out to do this. And it was just very rolled. And it was like every day, it was a groundhog day. There was even a point where they went on vacation and it was like they went home early because they were like bored and they had nothing to talk about. Really? So this had it was a short like weekend thing, I think, but still, yeah. So it was like very much like one, like giving them something to do together, two, like reigniting their sex life, and like three, making life less monotonous. But of course, like there became complications from that. But keep in mind, this in a similar fashion, the way they're started wasn't coming from a good foundation, it was coming from looking for excitement because they were feeling like bored and dull and exhausted by day-to-day life, similar to how we were. So it's just interesting. Yeah. Like that, as far as again, it can be successful, but you want to look deeper as to why you're doing something. I think as human beings, a lot of us don't, because we do want that like immediate gratification. Absolutely. So it's easy to justify, like, oh yeah, we're doing this because of this. And it's easy and not looking into like what, like, why is that right why? I mean, giving something a category takes away its descriptors. So immediately putting it into a box allows you to understand better as the human brain works, right? So instead of saying, I cheated on you because I wasn't happy because of A, B, C, and D, it's easier to say, I cheated on you because I knew you didn't love me. But what does that actually entail? What does that actually mean? And saying, hey, I want to start swinging, you know, I'm not gonna sit here and say, I need more excitement in my sex life. I'm gonna say I want to start swinging because I think that we can handle it as an emotional couple. No, we said we needed more excitement in our sex life. What I'm saying, we said that with our I think you're missing the point. What I'm saying is it takes away the descriptor, it takes away the problem or the opener to have that conversation. That's all.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

That's all. So bigger question for you.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

Did the fantasy pan out the way you thought it was gonna be like what was the difference between your reality reality and your fantasy with this? Uh I mean, when you see it in like media, it's like exciting and it's this long event, and like that. And it's sexy. And it's sexy and like it's scandalous and sweaty. Sometimes sticky. And I don't know why you're into the stickiness, but um gross little fucking monster. Um I'll I'll not go down that that track right now. So it wasn't, it wasn't like the it just it wasn't. I don't know how to explain it. It's like wasn't fulfilling. I feel like, and not like emotionally, but like fit, I mean, emotionally wasn't there, but like physically it wasn't fulfilling.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

I feel like I've had more fulfillment from one-on-one partnerships than ever with that. Like I was like, and we did hear someone like a friend of yours say too, like, it's not like what it's cracked up to be. Like it's it's definitely better with like one-on-one, and we were like, okay, sure. And I think it's just true, it was. And like I said before, um like a new person doesn't solve an old problem in a relationship. So was our threesums like fun and sexy, or was it a reason to just ignore ourselves? I would say it was more sticky. It was it was definitely um what when what why was it sticky? First of all, or were we in the same room? Like, why was it sticky? I think you were sticky because you threw up from being wasted. No one else was sticky. I mean, I showered right after and I I just can't only I just can't only I just don't understand where the stickiness is coming from. I definitely ignored a lot of shit that was happening. I just didn't like I want to sit here and say I was manic. I want to sit here and say I cared, but clearly I didn't give a shit. Um I think I was more involved in the instant um the instant pleasure of knowing that like we could bond this way. Yeah. Rather than anything that was bigger than our relationship. I think I was more concerned about like, okay, she's gonna get a kick out of this. We're gonna have a good time. Um, because that's what mania is. It's the here, it's the now, it's the present, it's the gimme, gimme, gimme. Yeah. And with that, it was just at the time a good opportunity to fuck around and find out. And we certainly did. Yeah. So did you have any like guilt or anxiety like surrounding it? I feel like you had, I don't know about not the first one. The first one I it was a wash. It was a wash, it was a wash, yeah. The first one was a wash. Um, if anything, I was more concerned about I don't even know, the breakfast that I was gonna have that morning. That's the first one. I wasn't concerned about it. I just wanted to come back and eat the chicken farm in bed, and I was pissed that I wasted my time not eating the chicken farm in bed. That was the first one. The second one, I did not think I was going to feel the way that I felt because of the body dysmorphia. I didn't have guilt or anxiety. I was feeling some kind of way about seeing you with him. Um I just didn't like I didn't like the visuals that I was seeing because I just didn't like seeing you with somebody else. Um, and I didn't like comparing myself to that somebody else, them being a male, them having a body figure. It all kind of really led back to the body dysmorphia part. And I didn't like seeing somebody else with you that I just didn't like seeing that. So guilt that's why I don't want to say guilt and anxiety, but definitely discomfort, a lot of discomfort, a lot of a lot of sticky feelings. Oh, that's where the stickiness is coming. A lot of sticky feelings. I was like, where are you getting this now? I know yeah, it was very uh like if I could like now I've come to terms with it after after therapy and after dealing with it, I've come to terms with how I feel about that. And it doesn't bother me anymore because I've dealt with my own shit, but for a long time it really it really affected me, and it affected how I saw myself with you. Yeah, not it didn't affect how I saw you, it affected how I saw myself with you. I I got that though, when you were because I you just these scenes like out-of-body experience for a while. I was having that, absolutely, yeah. Um so when it goes into stuff like that, because I do mention like mania, and I do mention, you know, me saying we should sleep with these people, we should do this, we should do that. So when does this kind of openness become an out-of-control thing? Um, I think when boundaries fail, and because we never like had solid boundaries to begin with that set us up for failure. So, like lack of boundaries, lack of foundation, like I said, um hiding behind these events and like putting energy into this rather than solving deeper problems. I think that's when like open becomes out of control because like there was no control to begin with, with just the two of us, and now we're just adding another body to the mix, which is gonna just add less control to the situation. So um what a wild variable, yeah. And then also this kind of goes into episode 18 a little bit too with like the slippery s the slippery slope that you mentioned last time. Because then once this didn't happen to my knowledge with us, but once that door's open, it can create that slippery slope of like it continuing to branch out further away from the partner that you started it with. I'm talking like one person continuing the relationship without the other or another relationship stemming from that one because I already did it with this person together, so now I feel more comfortable doing it without them, like that kind of slippery slope, but like mixed into other and it goes into, and I know that was a fear of mine when we ended our because I ended the quote unquote friendship that we had with our second person, and I was like, I don't want to be this guy's friend because of all the because of all the things that were triggering with me. It was really about me. And um, I remember telling you, I was like, I don't want him like texting you, I don't want you being his friend either, because it made me think that this is where his mind was gone. And like, I don't know what like I don't know him, you know what I mean? I don't know what his intentions were. All I knew were the intentions of what we already had. And like I can't imagine it was gonna go anywhere positive for us. So I knew that that slippery slope could have eventually happened, you with him, but not on your chord because of him. Yeah, but again, like again, it would be up to me to not do that. Absolutely. I'm just saying, like, in general, I've from other friendships and relationships, like I've seen that kind of like happen where like one person, like one person does one thing, then the other person, it goes tit for tat, then the other person does something, and then it just gets more and more comfortable to like go further and further from that baseline. Um, and people are like okay with it because it's like, well, I got away with it the first time. Let me see what I can do more. And it's pushing that boundary, you know. And it also can end up being like a drama explosion. So of course um it's all a drama explosion. And it doesn't matter if it's two men, it doesn't matter if it's two women, it doesn't matter who doesn't matter how you combine this and how many people are. Yeah, you know what? Whatever Lego piece and whatever Lego color you choose, like this is all gonna get fucked up in the end. What boundaries were crossed in your professional professional opinion? Because I don't think we really had any, but I also feel like I've been saying that the whole time and I've really asked you. That was the thing I was actually gonna bring up. I when you mentioned it the first time, like there weren't any boundaries in place because I remember even during our first threesome, I left the room to go to the bathroom or get water or something like that. And he turned to me and said, Is it okay if we continue pointing to you? Is it okay if we continue when you leave the room? And that was something that you and I never discussed or even thought to discuss, to be honest. And I actually reflected on that moment when you said boundaries because we didn't have boundaries when it came to this. We didn't even know what we were doing, we didn't know what we were getting ourselves into. So do I feel like boundaries were crossed? Yeah, all of them. Well, what were they? Yeah, you know what I mean? All of them, but they they weren't written, they were not, they weren't written, they weren't talking, there was no scripture to this. No, we just like whatever we believed in our head, and then when the other person didn't abide to what we believed in our head, it was a problem. Exactly. And now we didn't know it's your fault because I didn't even say anything. Yeah, exactly. And like that wasn't anybody's fault but our own. So, yes, I do believe boundaries were crossed. Um, well, changing the rules, like I said before, doesn't heal broken trust. So it's like that openness became chaotic. And it was like you said, like just us, like my own made-up boundaries in my head that I didn't communicate to you, your own made-up boundaries in your head, you didn't communicate to me. And we were just like winging it. Yeah, we were just really just like we were winging it. Yeah, winging it, like married for five years. Let's just throw another person in there and see what happens. You'll have to find it. Like that kind of way. Like that, yeah. Which sounds insane, but it's because it was. But also when you're in a place where you're not stable, it's a lot easier to continue to be unstable. It sounds insane because it was. I think that's the end of it. That's literally the end of it. It sounds insane because it was. Uh I mean, I'm happy that we made it out of live. And you know what? Like, as shit what a good learning experience. Don't recommend it, by the way. Unless, again, unless you're solid and like you have this shit under control. Yeah, don't recommend. But again, if you if you are that percentage of people that's like, bitch, we've been doing this for years and we got this. Like, good for fucking you. Yeah, for real. Also have that conversation if you do choose to invite somebody else into your relationship, have that conversation with that person because I'm I am grateful that we did that with the third person. Third person? There was a third person? No, you said the third, you said I'm glad we had the conversation with that person. So I said the third person. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought you meant like third, third threesome. I'm like, what third threesome? Where when the fuck did we get ice cream? So that wouldn't even surprise me, but no, we did not. No, but that's what I'm saying. Have that conversation because I know that like we had like quote unquote the sex talk with that third person before we engaged.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 39:05

Yeah, that's all. That's all what third, what third person? Yeah, we're gonna fucking get ice cream. Um, so I'm happy that we did that. So, like being safe, being secure in yourself in your relationship. And if you really can't bring it up to your partner, then no, it's not fucking time to be doing this. Yeah, and even if you can bring it up to your partner, it still may not be time to be doing this. Yeah, I would definitely reflect a lot on that. Yeah, like think about the reason more than if it if it is just like, oh, we need to spice up our sex life. Let's go on a retreat. What is like get a facial, I guess. Just go, just go that extra level that we didn't because we just let it sit there and marinate there, and it was really just riddled with other other shit. So on Adam and Eve, they have a lot of free shit. Adam and Eve retreats. Uh, read or listen to Swing by Ashley Renard and listen to episode 18. Yeah. Or just try something new. I don't know. There's a lot of like, nope, that that's where we're gonna leave that one. All right. Well, anyway, I have some sheep to feed. Um, oh, did we tell them we got sheep? We've got sheep, guys. Nelson and and and Dolly. Yeah. We got two baby doll sheep. I know they're so cute. They are. So we're gonna go feed those and not sleep with other people. See you guys in a few weeks. Bye.