SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to You Hawk and Unpack. Whoa. I'm Lauren. I'm Vicky. You already said it. Follow it up. Welcome. Welcome. Don't forget to text your best friend back. You had to sing it, sing song. I can't, I can't do that. That's okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

We're entering another week. I can't believe we're halfway through the summer.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Boo. Shut up. I know. I know. But you know what's out for us on these. I don't know about where you guys live, but we're in New Jersey, and every weekend so far it's been like pouring. Like it's been nice all week. I know. And then like when we kind of go to the beach, it's been like a rainy disaster. So this weekend we watched the ultimatum.

unknown 0:43

Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

So um I hate that they got rid of the gay one, obviously. I know. So I feel like it was really good. I wonder who pulled the final like string with that, though. I wonder who was like, we can't do this anymore. I don't fucking know. I just I'm disappointed. So I actually thought this season was gonna kind of suck because usually the straight ones like tend to be in the past, tend to have like some more surface level stuff, but it doesn't go between like you have to read between the lines on your own. No one like pulls it out. Yeah. But this season, Haley and um my Blake Blake did like the reading between the lines thing, which I thought was nice. You can definitely tell that they've gone to couples therapy because not the fact that they are using the word manipulative so much, it's the fact that they can tell what manipulation is and like and how finite it can be. Yeah, yeah. And like they sit there and they say, like, you're crying, yeah, it's manipulation. And like a lot of things are overlooked, like, yes, crying can be manipulation. You know what I mean? And they call it out and they're like, What do you mean? I'm literally just a girl. And it's like, girl, you are crying to manipulate the situation. Yes. I'm literally just a girl. Yeah. Uh no, but they're cool. The only thing is, like, now that they swapped, and spoiler alert for anyone who's not this deep into it yet, because we binged it. Um, now that we're into like them swapping back and she's back with Blake, like it's clear that, like, yes, she's been in therapy, but also she made it clear that she had some like traumatic upbringing type of like foster home type shit. Oh, yeah. And I think some of that, I don't know, like for sure, but some some insecurity foundational shit is like coming out because he's like, I'm confused for him, like the way she's like lashing out. But because she can tell it's like lack of stability on her part, and it's coming out like really weird. Yeah, no, she's lashing out for no good reason, it seems to be, because they went on a date and he just asked her general questions to basically lighten the mood. And she was like, Why are you asking? She completely reacted to it. Yeah, and it's like, Why are you reacting so strongly about this?

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Like, he didn't do anything, and then he's like, I don't know what you want me to do. I say something and it's wrong.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

I don't say anything and it's wrong. So I'm bringing light-hearted questions to the table to diffuse the situation, and she's like, What the fuck are you talking about? And I'm like, Oh my god, was I like this at 23? Probably. You were like that at 27, so ow. So was I. This is this is not a owl. Ow. I'm literally just a girl. I'm literally just a girl. So what a dick. Yeah. So with that being said, that brings us into that brings us into episode 20. Um 20 episodes. Can you believe it? I can't believe it. This is a mile marker for us. Yeah. And it 20 episodes. We did it. Yeah. I mean, we're gonna keep going, but like 20 episodes is a good, it's good. That's good. We got we got somewhere for the first 10. I feel like we were like, this is all right. Like I'm proud of us too. I just like that the second 10 we took it like a little more seriously. So episode episode 20, because we used it as like our therapy outlet for a minute. Yeah, it was very cathartic. It's still pretty cathartic, though. Yeah, I know. Y'all, they all everyone knows us. You all know us on like a deep, deep level. Um, so episode 20, do you have to forgive somebody to heal? And it's gonna be about like the truth after betrayal. So, as so I think for us, like one of the most damaging things that we were told when everything unfolded in like episode one, like after the affair, was you just have to forgive each other. Cause like you were like, you know, you and yourself. Yeah, each other and yourself. But I think for me to you, it was like, I can't speak on your behalf, but obviously there was resentments on your end to me. Otherwise, you wouldn't have acted out in that way. But then even from me to you, I remember like our therapist being like, you know, the punishment has to fit the crime. And I remember being like, I don't feel like there's any punishment unless I give it. So like I was even still like so much more resentful. And it felt like I was just being like pushed as if forgiveness was like a switch. Like I was supposed to just be like over it now because it wasn't that bad, essentially. And that's my perspective. Not saying that's the truth. I'm saying that's my perspective. So as if saying words like, okay, then I forgive her, like magically erased like any feelings that I would have, or I was just supposed to like get be move past it. Yeah. But then also, like, what if forgiveness wasn't really the goal alone? Like, what if healing together was, which is why we started like a new relationship. So today we're gonna be talking about like revenge fantasies, pressure to be moving on. What is healing like and what does it look like to you? Yes, exactly. Like that fear that healing could be leaving, if it is that what it means to you. Um and why you don't owe anyone forgiveness just because they're uncomfortable with your pain. Yeah. Yeah. I like that because honestly, we downplay our words to make it more palatable for others. Yeah. And this is a hard situation, especially when we know family members listen to this podcast and you know, we don't talk about it at holidays. They're not gonna bring it up enough. No, of course not. And that's just so the topics are like nothing. But that's the thing, it's that like why not? You know what I mean? Like, you absolutely can. It's it's we have a podcast about it. You can talk about it. I don't disagree with that also because there's plenty of like I can't remember her last name, Ari something. Like, she's like an only, she's like a very big like OnlyFans creator. And I send you her stuff all the time because she's funny, but anyway. Oh really? Yeah, but um pay more attention. Yeah, but um, like it's her, like obviously, like her family, like I think it's her and like her, I don't know. Her family knows what she does. And it always makes me wonder, like, and same with like certain like you know, celebrities, things like that, where like their job could be taboo or there's like sexy, like whatever. Is Ari like a sexy uh only fan? She's her yeah, that's her, that's only that's generally only fans. No, I know, but some people don't, some people aren't no, no, she's like she's no she does the thing, she does, yeah. She's in sex work, she does very well for herself. But anyway, hope she makes good revenue. She makes she very are you okay? Yeah, I just don't know who you're talking about. Um my god. Is the sky blue? Like anyway. Why pockets only go in the phone? I feel like like she or other creators or like other like star, whatever, where like their stuff can be more taboo. Like when they like I'm sure they're not gonna be talking about like the ins and outs of like her videos per se specifically. Yeah. But like also like they may not not ignore I'm sh I would like to think they don't just like completely ignore what her like career is. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. But that's what happens like with us. So it makes me wonder if it'll ever shift or not. But either way, like you said, regardless, um, I mean, my parents don't even ask, like they know my dad will be like, Are you still doing that podcast thing? And it's like, and then he like grunts when you say Yeah, and he's like, I wouldn't hear my dirty laundry out. And I'm like, Well, you don't do the laundry, so that makes sense. So for for this episode, we're gonna like rewind a little bit as far as like again, like forgiveness and healing and like forgiving someone else and yourself. Yeah. So take it away.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

So what I was always I thought what an interesting perspective was was you don't have to forgive.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Yeah. The lie of forgive and forget and why forgiveness can sometimes mean silencing your pain and enabling continued harm. So I'm not sure. Yeah. So if you can sit here and say, like, you know, I forgive, I forgive, I forgive, but really you're harboring, you know, still painful memories, aspects, resentments, it could just be enabling the behavior and those patterns that originally got you to that harmful place to begin with. Yeah, because if you're saying it, but you're not, you don't subconsciously actually feel that way, right? It's still gonna come out and it's not like again, like someone could be pushed to feeling like they should be forgiving somebody else, or they could be feeling whatever it is. But forgiveness isn't a choice, healing is a necessity. Right. So you don't have to forgive, but you have to like move forward. Well, that's the bigger part of that is that like what this forgiveness is. Are you viewing it as a purposeful act to forgive yourself, or are you viewing it as a gift?

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Explain. Are you forcing yourself to forgive to say that I forgive myself?

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Or are you or are you viewing it as okay, I forgive me because I was an active part in this situation, but I can take accountability, responsibility, and forgive myself and move forward versus the pressures of society that is sitting here making you forgive yourself. Or others. Or others, right, or others. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

So I think that like forgiving is a heavy word to say, especially when you don't mean it. And ultimately you know when your intuition is saying, I forgive you, and you don't mean it, because there's still those harbored feelings.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Yeah, and you feel it internally, like you feel like a gut, like it's like a gut feeling. Yeah, and you got wrenched kind of thing. Right. And you fear saying I don't forgive you, no matter how much time has passed. And I think that time is a huge pressure when it comes to saying those words. I think so too, because it's like if it's supposedly on the outside has been like long enough. Right, right. And like there and time does come into play, but also sometimes with forgiving, it can feel like it's kind of just like hushed where it's like, okay, like don't you forget, like, aren't you over it? Don't you forgive them? And over it is the forgiveness. Yeah, like aren't you over it? And it's like, yes, but also it's not just about the time, it's about was the work done in that length of time that's been occurring to allow forgiveness or moving on to actually like develop. Because it's not just like, yeah, time heals all wounds, kind of, not really, like if you think about grief, right? Like things like that, it can like lessen or dull it, but it doesn't go away. Right. And also the fact that these things, it's not just one thing. You know, it's layered. It's a it's layered, and it's a series of whatever the situation, and it's time that has built these resentments, and it's time that have it is time that has built this harm against the other person and yourself, and you're gonna need that amount of time plus some to learn how to, I don't want to say forgive, but uh, you know, purposely, hopefully, gracefully move forward, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Yeah. Well, I that's why I say purposely move forward, because I don't want to say the word forgive, but you're moving with intention to get to get past these things so you can live towards a better version of yourself, a better life for yourself.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

So I don't want to say forgive because there are plenty of things that maybe you don't forgive me for, but we've moved to a better place. Moving forward isn't the same as moving on, too. Yeah. So that's a good point. Like you can, like you said, like consciously and like with action and like work, like move forward. If you just like move on, I feel like that could be from my to how it works in my brain, like that could be where it's like you're like pushing yourself past.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Yeah, and it feels like it's sweeping something under the rug. And it's just that, like, okay, now it's uh under the rug, out of sight, out of mind. Now I don't have to deal with it.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

But that's also the things that drive us farther away from ourselves, from our consciousness, from our hearts to to to be the live in that resentment, like you're separate from that person if it is your partner, for example. Exactly. Like there's that, like the wall stays.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Exactly. And hopefully, you know what I mean, if this is like friendships or family members. We're talking purposely like romantic relationships in the in this episode.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

But you know, if it's friendships or or family members, hopefully there's the wherewithal to learn how to dose those people. If, you know, when people show you who they are, believe them. But when you're in a romantic, committed relationship like a marriage, like that is where this is derived from, not necessarily a friendship or a family member. Yeah, yeah. This specific conversation. But to that point, like obviously, like we've said we've set up before we'll say it again, divorce isn't inherently bad. Right. If that's oh yeah, no, if it's safer, if it's better for you, if that is how you view healing in a successful way, like more power to you. You know? Um and like, so when it comes to that, because because all those like harbored feelings can really turn into things that you might not, we're gonna use moving forward, right? Not moving on. We're gonna say the word moving forward in the terms of I don't forgive, but I'm moving on. I don't is it I thought it was more like, correct me if I'm wrong, from what we were taught in like couples therapy. Because like, yes, you don't have to forgive, but from what I'm remembering, I thought it was more like I am choosing to fo move forward with you and work on forgiving you, but this is gonna be like a grievance I have. So please be patient with me if it does pop up and like know that this is what I'm going through. And that does actually have to be communicated though. Absolutely. And that's where a lot can get missed. And I think there's like jokes about it even on social media where it's like a real and it's like, oh, my girlfriend and like her luteal phase, and it's like, we're having a good time. Like, how many other girls have you done this with? And it's like, because it's like all of a sudden, this like random repression can kind of like pop up, and there doesn't have to be a rhyme or reason for it, just like grief if someone's like the spoon could be a pink color. Yeah, like anything, like a yeah, anything. But it can make sense. So I guess that brings apart. Do you have can that bring about fantasies of revenge or wanting revenge? It did for me. Okay, but not like now, but in the beginning, I think when it was like pushed for you and I specifically for you and I specifically, when it was like pushed to be like, you know, the punishment has to fit the crime. I think like the crazy in me was like, oh, you want it to fit the crime? Like you want to talk about mothers? You want to talk? Yeah, like it was like, I was like, oh, you want it to fit the crime? Like, okay. And like I just like, how can I crack it wider open? It was just like, I don't know, like hit a note with me, because like I wasn't, and this does have to do with like myself and my own insecurities in my anger, but like I wasn't like done yet. And I didn't feel like I yeah, I just it just wasn't like I and I'm not saying like that complete. It was it wasn't complete, and I wasn't that doesn't mean like it was for me to take out on you per se by any means, but it was more about like you said, it wasn't it wasn't complete. So like closure isn't something someone hands you as much as like you want it to be like that. It's something you build, and I don't think I was done building that because I was still very resentful. I wasn't, I was still in that phase of building, like where I was trying to like start to grab some good things and rebuild a new foundation, and I feel like I wasn't quite there. Yeah. Um yeah, I don't think you had all the tools because with closure comes those tools to rebuild the foundation, and I don't think that all of those tools were necessarily there. And that's not to just say for you, but for me too. When we were building our own foundations, our own structures, I don't think that either of us really knew how to forgive properly to move forward. Yeah, I agree. With that though, I do have to admit, I think fantasies of revenge are like completely emotionally, not physically or realistically. I think that emotionally they're completely normal. Yeah, yeah. Don't like act them out, but like that's what I'm saying. Like, yeah, like listen, like don't go out there and do it. But I think like having those intrusive thoughts of like revenge fantasies, like normal. Yeah, I've definitely had revenge fantasies towards you, towards a lot of people out there, yeah, which we will not name because I will be thrown in jail. Yeah, for legal reasons, we're not gonna go there. But like, but um no, like I think it's normal, like when you're upset to be like it's like when you get in the shower, and we've I've talked about this example before too. It's like when you get in the shower and you're like, Oh, I should have said this, like in that moment, like kind of thing. Like, it's normal to have those thoughts, like don't act on them because it's all about you can have your emotions, it's your response to them that like really dictates like how emotionally mature or aware you are. Right. Like, even with bringing back to the ultimatum, really quick. From there was an a part where during like this ceremony before they got paired with their original partners again. What's her name? No, Ashley started crying and like threatening I shouldn't just start crying. She started like getting very worked up. And I looked at you and I go, She lost. Because I was like, whoever actually shows like an emotional reaction first loses because it shows that like you're not processing, like you're not being able to stay stable and grounded in that moment.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Right. Well, that's the thing. Is that like ultimately, like, how are you going to? And I'm glad that you said that.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

So, with that energy that you have to fuel these revenge fantasies, how can you ultimately transition all of that energy into fuel for personal growth? Because, like you said before, emotional wherewithal is not emotional awareness. So you can have the wherewithal and be knowledgeable in all the things like we were completely emotionally aware of ourselves, but were we because we weren't acting on how to get better from our emotional awareness.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

We were sitting stuck in it. So, how can you really fuel these personal revenge fantasies into fuel for yourself to get better? And it's really hard to make those transitions because you have to want to get better.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

It's like anything else, like an adequiting uh, you know, smoking cigarettes, like you have to want to quit smoking. You have to want to move forward. And that's why we keep reiterating that maybe divorce is the healthier option. Maybe moving on without this person is the healthier option. Because if you can't learn to move forward with this person, then you really have to look inward and see individually where that emotional awareness should be taking you, whether it be as an individual or or as a couple. With that being said, about like emotional awareness and like channeling that energy to move forward, and us saying about like divorce isn't inherently bad, healing might save your relationship, or it might help you realize that it's actually time to leave. So for two reasons. If one, sometimes people just like straight up don't grow together, or you can't have one party of the relationship more have a deeper desire to move forward than the other.

SPEAKER_03 18:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

Like if it's uneven, it's uneven. Yeah. Like and you can't control like your other half, like unfortunately. So also with that being said, too, is that there's like like a fucking spider over there. And like sorry, why she's like switching around in like this in the studio seat. Sometimes it's where do you get comfortable? Yeah. So with that being said, too, like you said, you can't control the other person. Healing might show you that it's time to leave. So basically, when it comes to healing, whether it's with this person or without them, the desire to heal has to feel like the this is gonna sound bad, but like a lesser path of resistance than rock bottom. So some people will stay rock bottom or will stay in like this unhealthy dynamic or won't work to figure it out or won't work to move forward or just stay in this like resentment tit for tat back and forth pattern. If it feels like a path of least less resistance compared to putting the work in to heal. So again, this is like the choose your hard kind of thing. Like it's gonna be hard no matter what. But it's like, yeah, again, generally speaking, and that's why we have the audience we do, like generally speaking, like people do choose the path of least resistance, they don't put the work in, but like it's gonna feel like shit either way, either like choosing to put the work in for yourself and or your partner, or just sitting there and like dealing with like the turmoil every day of like having this unhealthy dynamic. And that's like a huge part of acceptance. And I always say that acceptance is the hardest virtue you're ever gonna learn. Yeah. Um, but that is a terrifying moment to realize whether you're going to heal with this person or heal without this person. And that is something that you really do have to ask yourself internally and forthright, because I think people always say, but there's good moments, there's good over bad, there's this, every relationship has bad times, so on and so forth. But really, it comes down to you as an individual because you are number one, right? Yeah. And you should always be number one to you. You just should be. So if you're coming second, if you're coming last, and you notice it as a consistent pattern, and that's always been your relationship, and you realize that even after this healing grace period, however you want to call it, the moving forward stages, and you realize that you're still coming second, that's an internal question that you really need to ask yourself. And like that fear and that grief with the possibility that the love might not be enough to heal this trauma inflicted, that's something that you really need to look inward. Because if there's Can you elaborate on that a little? Sorry, I think I interrupted you. You're elaborating. No, yeah, that's fine. So I think that with a bunch of, as we were saying before, it's not just one moment that has caused all of this pain. It could be a bunch of different moments that led you up to this. So with you doesn't have to just be cheating, it could just be like general disrespect over the years. Right. So when people say like love isn't enough, because it's not. There has to be a lot more than just love that goes into this relationship to make sure that it can make up for all of that trauma inflicted. So if you ultimately ask yourself, if love isn't enough to heal this, then what are we doing? You know, what am I doing? Where am I with this? And I'm not saying like go out there and divorce your partner. That's not what I'm saying. But ask yourself these harder questions if you find yourself being inflicted by the pain of your partner. And also, like you said, like love isn't enough to keep love is you can always love somebody, but it doesn't secure their presence in your life. Like so you can still have that love for this person, but if you don't feel feel like even after like things have come to a head that there's work being put in on the other side as well. Yeah. And I think to the point that you're to the extent that you're receiving it. Cause also that's a thing. It's like maybe they're putting in effort, but it's not the way you receive effort or love or whatever. And that's a whole other conversation. Well and I think that's something that you and I have brought up even with our friendships that like we have brought them up with friendships that were so important to us. And of course like I'm always gonna love the people that were close to me at certain times of my life because at certain times of my life I absolutely needed them. But ultimately I will not I cannot receive their you know love that they can give because that's not what I need in a friendship. And that's fine for them. But ultimately like that relationship had to end and I had to heal without them and I had to get better without them. And like yeah there's grief with that and there's you know grievances, grief, uh reflection, whatever you want to call it but ultimately if this is what makes you the better version of yourself, then really, you know, work with it. You know, use that energy. Find a different hobby. Maybe find new friends. Find a different hobby. No, find a different hobby. Like there's plenty of things that I found after I lost a bunch of friends there's plenty of things that I found to get closer to me. Even when you and I were dealing with our painful conflicts and dealing with our painful like trauma even after sessions and stuff like that. Where I had to find out like okay what's ultimately going to bring me closer to me so I can be a better version for my wife. And it's not so much being a better version for you, but it's being the best version of myself so I can bring that to the table for us. Yeah. Not just for you but for us. Yeah. I agree. And like to that point too um I feel like that goes into like what does success look like in a relationship when you're healing from betrayal. Yeah. Yeah because again like you said like what can I bring to the table not just for me but for us. Because at that point if you are really in this with like your romantic partner it yeah like and again ours was two way like again I'm not saying like usually there there's no regardless of what's going on like there's there's two people there's two contributions even if someone was like the victim of one circumstance more or whatever the fuck like there's still usually like some like there's there's both there's two players. So with that being said if like you guys are choosing like screw it like we're gonna move forward and like this is going to suck but we're gonna do that. Like you said it's not just but what you bring to the table for yourself in order to heal and move forward. It's like what you're too choosing to consciously bring to the table that your partner's going to be receptive to to help you guys rebuild and move forward. Right because you have to be open to that receptiveness and you have to be open that's it. You have to be open to that you if you do choose it, you have to be receptive otherwise what are you doing? Well I know that that was an issue speaking personally that was definitely an issue for you and I that we weren't receptive to each other when it came to that is that on our healing path, you know, because there's always places to heal for you and I like and that's that's relationships across the board but I'm speaking specifically about you and I like when we would look for places to heal better with and when we would look for places to heal more with we realized that we weren't being receptive of each other and the walls would go up. The walls would go up and then we would realize like why are we getting frustrated and it's like because I don't want to be receptive and honestly it's okay to be caught in the heat of the moment to say I'm not being receptive right now. Again, but having that communication was vital for us saying I'm not receptive right now.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

I need to go to the other room I need to take a minute I need to take a beat I need to take a beat and then I will come back so I can hear you. But right now I can't hear you. It's also okay to express yourself you know saying like fuck you like I'm mad right now is perfectly okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

But saying fuck you you dumb bitch is not okay. You know there's there's well I don't know if fuck you is really okay. That's still like super like condescending.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Yes but I also think that being mad and being able to express yourself in that anger is okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Again it's not you can yes just like the choice of words is like really vital here. So that's why like you said like it's like so that's why like you said like being like I'm not being receptive right now. Like even if you're consciously working to rebuild with someone if you're having a moment where those feelings are coming back up for you and your partner's even in the middle of doing a nice gesture like you can be like I'm not in a receptive place for this right now. Like I'm not gonna give you like the energy that I feel like you even deserve from this because of where I am right now mentally. But I don't feel like personally speaking on mine, I don't feel like any name calling or like anything is like acceptable. You like any explicit language. Yeah no I don't because like it's putting up maybe this is like the salesman but it put it puts up in a defense right off the bat.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

Okay I don't feel that way but something new I'm learning about you so that's helpful.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

That's good to do it I mean like it puts a defense up really quick. It's like now I'm not gonna want to hear anything you have to say.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

No I think that makes sense. I guess I just disagree with that because like there are times I am disagreeing. Oh there are times shut up there are times that like you can say things that are I I guess like off putting like like like stop talking right now. You know what I mean? Like I'm not gonna fucking hear you. I feel like that's acceptable but like fuck you numb bitch like that's not like I can't get down with that. But there are plenty of times where you've been like stop talking like yeah probably I had to say fuck you and stop talking can I not say please if you did it was with your fucking narcissistic bullshit face fuck you I'll work on saying please please stop talking anyway oh you cracked me up so anyway back to it yeah so what does success look like to you in your relationship on a positive note what I mean like traveling in the like you said before like you have to both agree to want to get better because I think that's where you and I really didn't have a problem with is that we both wanted to get better.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Like our first session with Shannon when we came in there and sat down and wrote each other like notes and actually physically looked at each other for the first time in like months. And that was crazy yeah that was crazy. But it's because we both wanted it and we hugged in the parking lot and we were like I'm sorry I do want to work on this but you we both wanted to get better. If there was one missing like it would have been it it wouldn't have done it. Exactly truthfully and like you said you have to want it and it's like any it's like anything else like if you don't really want it it's gonna show exactly because it's all about effort at the end of the day and you can say you want it as many times but if you don't genuinely feel it's gonna come out. Yeah and at that point like do you want to play that game with yourself and your emotions and your partner's emotions like do you do you want to push back your happiness farther and theirs like for the sake of like I mean don't worry about theirs but like I know but I'm just saying yeah but like for the sake of like trying if you really don't and that's the heart other part of this is like when it comes to healing after betrayal like you really have to be honest with yourself if you even want to. Yeah. Yeah you might not want to this might have been like the straw that broke the camel's back for you and that's okay. And right and that's okay. And I think that that's like something that's very difficult specifically for women to say that's okay. I think a lot of men have an easier time saying you know what fuck you I want to be on the couch and wear sweatpants every day this week and like not give a fuck about it.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

And like I think it's easier for men to do that than it is for women because women have a tendency to have this ultimate maternal life.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

From a societal standpoint fair obviously individuals that's very play a big play a big part but like as a societal standpoint generally speaking like yes the invisible emotional labor tends to fall on women more as far as like remembering appointments like getting the like getting house everything everything. Yeah like knowing your kid's damn tutor's name like your husband doesn't like whatever it is like generally speaking obviously there's plenty of partners out there that's extremely equal for however that works out but yeah generally speaking. Well I've noticed more so in histories in stories that we've heard from family members that have been divorced or friends that have been divorced or you know other people that are on like that second or third layer of our lives that have been divorced. And ultimately like the male figure the male representation of the relationship let's put it that way the male representation of the relationship is more likely to be like you know what it's what they wanted and like it sucks but like here we are where the woman will very vulnerably and very openly say I wanted it to end differently but so and so just like it wasn't going to work through the tank throw the towel in yeah they just didn't want it and here we are and like yeah that sucks but like I'm gonna move on and they take that strength and they use it as fuel. As as they should because otherwise if you're yeah gonna pour yeah so again it all comes down to like being honest with yourself and that shows it shows on their end too. Maybe they were just more honest to be like I was good with this being over a while ago and now it came to a head. So if you say you're done like I can be done. I can be good with that. Yeah like yeah no that makes a lot of fucking sense. So accepting that healing's not linear too. So if you are going to stay together and you do want this like genuinely at your core the both of you accepting that healing's not linear and making peace with like an ambiguity so knowing that you can be doing good for like a few weeks. I know we had times like this where like you can you can be doing good for a few weeks like not really be thinking about it and like something can just rub you the wrong way. It doesn't fucking matter what like a song comes on the radio the wind blows the wrong way outside and you just like slip back in like know that it's not because it is a form of grief. You're not losing a person physically but you are you're losing relationship you're losing an old relationship and what you what you thought or fantasized or imagined or tried to present was true. Yeah. And that's still grief. So you have to be not okay with but knowing that what you're getting into is not going to be a linear healing. You can have the feelings but don't beat yourself up or your partner up if there are some backslides. That's to be respected but also don't stay in them either like accept it. Right. And it's okay to have bad days like that that ultimately I think is something that we learned through this process as well is that having bad days we're expected. Having bad days are necessary because there are going to be times where a certain fucking song comes on or there's going to be a dumbass reminder about oh my God yeah about anything right about about anything about going to the gym like there's gonna be reminders about certain things that happen and you just have to learn how to really take it gracefully and accept it for what it is and how you choose to react it's okay to have those emotions.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

How you choose to react to those emotions are a completely different story.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

So that's ambiguity and it could be just as simple as that but it's okay to have those bad days to be like you know what nothing nothing specific happened but it I'm just having a bad day I'm just back in that place right now and like we're and I need a fucking minute. Yeah and like and a minute can be the day I mean it can be the day.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

A minute doesn't have to be 10 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

It doesn't have to be a walk you don't have to come back from a walk and say okay I'm better now like you can be like listen I'm still on a funk and like this might take a minute but like I will talk to you when I'm ready to um but also again using that using that energy as fuel to either journal or or you know whatever you like to do paint sing run whatever you like to do go out and do that so you can have those moments of to yourself like you can have those moments of emotional processing to yourself without pulling your partner into it into it still because at the same time in tandem your partner's also going through this healing shit with you. Right. So if you're in a bad mood you can't dictate the emotions of the entire house. Absolutely absolutely and that was something that you and I both had issues with. Yeah we both did and like we're a lot better about that now but right but like when you say like when you say like going into another room or going for a run or doing whatever it is that you do to at least cope and get like your head level so you're not as deeply reactive in that moment to like then go process your emotions whatever that looks like for you that doesn't mean that in the meantime in the interim like you get that you you get yeah like you dict like that your emotions are so strong and outward that they dictate the vibe of the rest of the house. Yeah just because you woke up in a bad mood doesn't mean your partner's gonna be in a bad mood because you're in a bad right if you guys need to spend like that day separately apart like you doing you and like them doing them it should still have a light qual like no it shouldn't be like a super happy vibe in the house but there should still be a neutral quality in the air. Like it shouldn't be like oh she's mad like the rest of the day is going to be an issue. Like that ends up becoming like a manipulative thing and that's where it can start to go tit for tat where now the next day the next person's like you know what I'm in a bad mood because you were a bitch all day yesterday. Yeah yeah no I think that's like really fair to say and also how can you unapologetically not downplay your trauma to rush closure elaborate on that alone because I get it but I need you to like how can you you're taking ownership of something of all of this that happened and how can you not make it you're not sugarcoating it for everybody else and you're still taking that reality that you faced and you're not rushing that closure that happened. So you're still within the swamp of sadness if you will but you're not trying to force anything which way or the other you're just trying to focus on you right and allow it to like take the time that it needs so that you can right so how can you own that really like how can how can you own that and and still carry on about your day in your work life in your professional life and your in your personal life like how do you do that? Well I feel like one like having an outlet outside of your partner is going to be big in this moment because like you are not going to want to give your unfiltered emotions always to the person that was that did hurt you. And I don't mean like bit and here's the here's where it gets to be a great line because I don't feel like talking to your best friend who already hates your partner is a good idea. Yeah that's I don't think looping your and I'm saying this from like my own mistakes like I don't feel like looping your family in is a good idea. Like I do think as far as like unapologetically taking the time that you need to heal and still have the feelings of like hurt and betrayal that you have are absolutely necessary. And do I feel like you should be isolated during that no but I also feel like the people closest to both of you don't need to know all the dirty details in and out. Right. Because then it starts to get messy. Yeah. I've and it makes it more complicated. Do I feel like you should have an outlet like a counselor or like an unbiased third party or a friend like who's who's further away from the both you that isn't really involved in the situation.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Yep kind of thing like yes or even like writing letters that you know you're not gonna send.

SPEAKER_01 36:59

Yeah anything yeah like anything like that like because some people don't want to see a therapist because they've had bad experiences. No, that's fair too. And I I agree just you needing to you need to get it out with some other way outside of the person who's in it with you. And you need to speak about it. Like that was a huge part that I learned is that writing about it wasn't enough. Journaling about it wasn't enough. I needed to talk about it. I needed to verbally say it to you to our therapist to my personal therapist like it needed to be said that vulnerability aspect you know I'm not disagreeing with that at all. I know everyone's different so I'm just throwing stuff out there. Yeah but no like to your point like we we both needed to have it verbalized but we went through multiple channels before we verbalized it to each other in the beginning in the beginning when it was like fresh because we would we talk to our personals we talked to our couples then we'd say it to each other kind of thing in couples. We wouldn't just be like coming right out at each other because the times that did happen was not very nice on my end specifically. Right. So that's why I'm saying like it was an unsafe habitat it was not a vivarium it no there I don't think that's the right appropriate what it what do you because we watched no I know we watched back rooms but I don't know how that relates to this. It was not a watched area for safety no but it needed to be yes that's like I'm sorry you feel like you're so vague somehow you're ambiguous sometimes I don't know what you're talking about. Um but yeah like rushing closure of course like you you can feel like you need to do that because a lot of the other thing too is a lot of times you're not gonna want to sit in uncomfortable moments yeah for a long period of time because like it's uncomfortable. So you're like all right I'll just focus on the good stuff and like bury this. But when you do that it ends up under the rug and that's where longer term it comes up later. Like if you let it surface and heal and bubble the way it's needs to rather than being like okay let me just focus on the good times like let's just put this behind us and start over without really addressing it because that's the thing that's going to start coming up later and biting you guys both in the ass. Like so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:06

No I think that's perfect. I think that's a good way to say it.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

So when like people say society standards when people sit there and say like do you think everything happens for a reason like how would you unf specifically to our circumstances okay because I'm like how would you respond to that how would you respond to that then and how would you respond to that now?

SPEAKER_01 39:29

So I'm glad you said with our circumstance specifically or well everyone else is different and and individuals are individuals. So that's why I'm saying us because I'm not gonna speak for anybody else. Okay because I was like I was like do I think everything happens for a reason like no I think like violence is unnecessary I think there's not a reason for everything like overall um it is no like no I don't but like for us specifically in in our relationship I do feel like the reason for it was to really like unveil like the truth of the relationship so that we could look at it for what it was and heal together. Do I think that's always the case for everyone else? No, I think maybe the reason that it could happen for someone else is so that they can see that like they're better off without this person or similar to us so that they can heal together or something completely different. But I do think a reason is there a reason can be a tough one because if like your partner passes like there's not like I don't think there's a fucking fair reason for any of that shit. Like you know that's like that there's a bright side of or silver lining of like I just think that sometimes it's not sometimes it's not and it's not but for us specifically like yeah I do feel like it lifted the veil for us to see and heal how do you feel about that statement like like um there's a there's a reason for everything. S yes specifically for us I do think that that was absolutely the reason and like we both said that like this situation was a complete catalyst for us to like handle our shit because we really needed to and I even said it today in therapy um I was like you know I feel very like two sides like two sides of the same coin like I don't like that I did those things with the accountability but like we absolutely needed to have something blow up in our face for us to get better because we were just cycling this yeah this toxic behavior and like we weren't gonna go anywhere and if anything we were just gonna hurt ourselves or hurt somebody else. Yeah go ahead go ahead no I was gonna say and to that point as far as cycling toxic behavior and like what this episode is all about cycling toxic behavior can be the betrayal itself. Absolutely like as far as like neglecting each other's needs like not hearing your partner like not taking each other seriously like getting resentful over stuff because of like all of the above like saying the same thing over and over for years and years and they still can't hear you. Yeah that's that's toxic behavior. We're taking daggers now no I was actually thinking about um um the TV show the ultimato yeah I was actually thinking about the ultimate because she's like I tell you this all the time what aren't you getting yeah or also just feeling like dis there's a million things that count personal I was like I was like I thought we moved past it. I thought we moved forward I thought I thought we had moved forward how appropriate yes honey we moved forward no but I think no we clearly didn't um I believe um no to your point like yes like those things in itself like can be the toxic behavior and that can be betrayal enough like it doesn't have to be like we said this big blow up thing it can be like years and years of disrespect in smaller ways that make you feel like you're not close with your partner your partner or like have partner or have built up a wall or a million other things like that alone can be the source of betrayal totally and having to like figure out how to heal from that or move on from that. Yeah. And that's my TED talk. No I'm glad I showed up for that TED talk. You wrote the notes for the TED talk. Um no I agree I agree with you entirely it's a different perspective for sure yeah well anyway any closing remarks ma'am um it's midsummer we're gonna go see 311 and Dirty Heads and I'm really excited because it's our like once a year concert that we I meant I meant for I meant for them not for us. You're like you're like we're gonna have a good time no I forgiveness for yourself is real you don't have to forgive anybody else those are my closing remarks I think that's fair actually yeah and we're going to see three eleven