SPEAKER_00 0:00

I'm Vicky, and I'm Lauren. This is Yuhan back. Don't forget to text your best friend back. Hey, hey, hey. Um. Oh my gosh, welcome. But it is August. For those of you who work full time. For those of you who celebrate, happy fall. Wow. The first no, the first leaf has not fallen. I don't know. My spooky friends would disagree. Just because you bought our cat a that Halloween blanket doesn't mean it's that means it's the start of fall. Nothing pumpkin came out yet. Our pumpkins are currently growing in our garden. They are floored. They are a flower. So they have grown. No. That is the start. No, they have not. They have a lot of money. Why are you stressing out? They have not formed. It sounds like one of us is stressing out about fall and the other one isn't. And it sounds like you are the problem. I just I just like envisioned like grabbing her glasses and being like, breaking them. Oh my god. Oh, so you take them all off because now I'm interested. Oh my goodness. No. I am definitely obsessed with fall. I can't wait for pumpkin spice. I'm enjoying summer. Do not get me wrong. It really doesn't sound like you're enjoying summer. It's the Sunday of the summer. Because I'm also August and you're and and you said happy fall. Well, my therapist told me to work on the present, and we're gone being okay with just now. So you just said the fall. Right. Okay. I can see that lesson hasn't soaked in. Why I'm so offensive. Because I wait all year for these two months. I know. You're gonna let me fucking enjoy it. You know what's crazy? It does feel like it starts starts in May and like goes straight through September, but realistically it only feels like July and August. Yeah, but it would start in May if Memorial Day wasn't always chronically raining in Jersey. It does probably has rained since I've been in college. I'd never counted. I never noticed until you pointed it out and you were like, it always rains for uh Memorial Day weekend. I'm like, no, you're a fucking liar. And now I'm like, oh, it always and I'm never gonna bring it up. Whenever I seen the weather for that weekend, I'm like, she can talk to me about it. I'm not gonna mention it. It always rains for Memorial Day and Jersey and it always rains for pride in New Jersey. Always pride, always pride, always Memorial Day. But honestly, ladies and that's like rain on me, bitch. Like no, that cuts out May and that cuts out June. So I got July and August. But I so this is the good part about it raining for pride is that like everybody has to take their clothes off and everyone's super gay, and it's just a really fun runs wearing like rainbow tape every time. Like rainbow duct tape, and they're like, you're like rain on me, bitch. Right on me, bitch. A lot of good-looking men, so I can appreciate that. You love a good gay man. I do love a gay man like a good gay man. Anyway. Alright, for episode 21. 21 made. I can't believe we went in. I wish I was in my 20s again. What would I do if I was in my 20s? You were not fun to be around in your 20s. You weren't you weren't even there. I met you when you were 27. I was fun in my 20s. I was I was fun when you met me in my 20s. That's true. Not before that. Before that, we call that the dark ages. We need not alter ego, Alyssa. She's got a name now. Oh god, she's not just mine. Thank God. She's so ugly. So my God. Okay, that was unnecessary. What? And she's ugly. Well, well, we don't need to talk about it. All right. Anyway, episode 21. Um episode 21 is gonna be um you're not a bad friend, you're emotionally exhausted. Sure am because everyone loved toxic friendships for episode three. So we're we're bringing it back, girly. We're gonna give y'all what you want. Yeah. So give the people what they want. Give the people what they want. So I'm gonna say something that's gonna make a few people uncomfortable, though. If someone's name's popping up on your phone and it makes your stomach drop, or you're like anxious, or you like purposely wait for it to go to voicemail or something like that, then this episode's for you. Is it shitty to say those are my parents? Fucking shit. That's a different, that's a different episode entirely. Well, anyway. Or I feel like, do you ever try to avoid seeing someone like you consistently make excuses? Because I think that's a really good point that you bring up if somebody's calling or texting and like you get like the shiver down your spine. Uh-huh. Is there anyone that like you're persistently avoiding or coming up with excuses? Or did you just think of someone you made? No, I was thinking like, I was thinking like, not anymore, like which is nice. But yeah. That's true. Healthy friendships aren't supposed to make you feel emotionally hung over. Absolutely. And if you've ever wondered whether you're supporting someone or slowly becoming their therapist, today we're unpacking the difference. Okay. Have you ever felt like you were somebody's therapist? I know you have. I feel like I feel like you're everyone's therapist. I have, not anymore, though. That's good. Not anymore, like at all, at all. Do you ever feel like you were the person that people would like emotionally dump on? You already know the one who besides that. Besides that, um that was probably the biggest person. Um, the uh maid of honor, matron of honor in my wedding was no, we're gonna be not in contact anymore. That was probably the biggest one. I'm trying to our wedding. Did I say my wedding? Yeah, I was there. I was the first one. I don't know if I was married too. I was narcissistic.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

It was my wedding.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

I'm getting married before my sister. Shout out to Lisa Sleishinger, because that's a quote. Um so no, there was really what stands out is that one. Um, I'm trying to think of like that. That's probably where I had the most examples off the top of my head. It doesn't mean there weren't others, but I think that was like the biggest consistent one. Oh, there's another one. We're gonna call her because this this was our friend, a bridesmaid. Uh-huh. We're gonna call her Alyssa. No, that's your bitch's name. That's your alter ego's name. Yeah. We're gonna call her Chloe. Okay. Do you know you know who I'm talking about? Yes, I know who you're talking about. Okay, I feel like Chloe was a big one for both of us. Chloe was a big one. How about how is there anyone that you do you feel like you were that person where it's like not just were you the therapist, but you were like emotionally responsible for like them, their well-being. Like, like it was okay, like it was expected for them to reach out to you in crisis, which could be more often than not, like we're talking multiple times a week, or it would be like when you would do it, it was not like or when you would reach out for like they it was very one-sided. It was not reciprocated. Yeah, yeah, very one-sided. I would definitely say yes. I think that I had a lot of friendships where I thrived on being the therapist in the relationship because like I felt needed, and that was something that my ego was feeding on, and I didn't realize I was also being drained by it as well. Okay. So but when it came to reaching out, I also it also took me a lot to be able to be vulnerable, vulnerable with other people and express myself. Like I have two really good friends now, and even expressing myself to them now takes a lot of strength for me because I know that they love me and I know that they care about me, but to express my vulnerability to them, it takes a lot of work for me. So in my past self, let's say that, my past selves, I was definitely thriving being the therapist, but didn't realize how much it took out of me. And it made sense in almost all of my friendships, I was the therapist. I think it's interesting that you said like you You meant wait, don't quote this isn't exactly what you just said, but what I took from that is like you kind of thrived off of being needed. Yeah, absolutely. I wasn't needed I didn't feel that I was needed in my romantic relationships, so I felt that I was if I felt that I was being needed in my outside curricular relationships, then I felt like that was like the good part, you know what I mean? Then I was needed somewhere, then I was loved somewhere, then I was cared about somewhere because I was so lost in other shit that if I could feel like needed in this capacity, like cool, I'm doing it. But was it draining 1000% because then I was listening to other people's problems nonstop, and that was taking up so much space in my head that I couldn't worry about me. Hence why I was like kind of like doggy paddling through life just to get through until like I had like real direction, you know?

SPEAKER_02 8:41

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

So it took a long time to come out of that, but I definitely felt like I was being like when I would bring these situations up to the friends that were using me, because they were definitely using me. Yeah, I felt like I was being gaslit. Well, I was gonna say, like, isn't our like isn't our first topic like of this of this episode like gaslighting and psychological abuse? Definitely, yeah. Okay. So so you feeling that open. How would you define gaslighting? How do I personally define gaslighting? Um Well, it's like it's based off of what you said was a movie, right? It was a play play. The play gaslight, where it's like the there's a husband and wife, and he's like slowly turning, is it down or up the lights? He's turning down the lights. Turning down the lights, and every time she brings it up, he like tells her she's nuts and it's not happening. Well, that's where the term originated from. So it came from this play. I want to say it's the 1920s. Could be, I could be completely making that up though. But that's what I think of like so when there were gas. Yeah, so when there were gas lights to keep a house like lit for like lighting. So what would happen every day is this husband would turn down the light and he would wait for the wife to be like, hey, it's getting a little bit darker in here, and he would be like, No, it's not, you're being crazy. And that's where the term gaslight comes from, where somebody is bringing up the truth to you and confronting this while you're turning around to be like, you are the crazy one. And that's where the term originated from. And I think that's such a good way to say it. So now every time somebody says gaslight, I think it's such a silly concept to really like put into perspective about very literal. I think that's why I like it. Because every time when you ask, like when anyone brings up the word, that's like what I actually picture. Exactly. That's why I was like, you have to explain the answer to that question. So I think that whenever somebody is being honest with themselves, and then there's that other like party that's like, you're being nuts, and it's like, I'm not being nuts, you're being nuts as like your eye like bulges out of your scum. Yeah, you start to like see veins in your neck, and it's just like, no, you're being nuts. But we had plenty of experiences with being gaslit and well, the one thing that I think all of the friends that we're referencing, and that I think a lot of like our listeners will resonate with, is that if someone's name's popping up on your phone, instantly raising your anxiety, this episode's gonna be for you. Yeah. So that I think is like across the board with Chloe, matron of honor, and your matron of honor, whoever the fuck else in your life, which was like everybody, like you said, and round up and say everyone, round up and say everyone. Yeah. Um, so as far as like even getting to that, I guess like here's a question I have for you that comes like off the top of my mind. Like, how does it even get to that dynamic? Because that doesn't develop overnight. The therapy dynamic? Not just the therapy dynamic, but like like I said, like when someone's name pops up on the phone and you get anxious, like that doesn't happen a day one. Like, you know what I mean? Like, so yeah, how does it not just get to the point of like the therapist, but like we said, the gaslighting and psychological abuse to the point where if you do see that name come up and you like kind of like well, how did it come up for you? Because I think that you have a more realistic I think that you have a very textbook definition of how it happened for you. So I'm gonna ask yours is very black and white, where mine is a little bit more skewed where I invited that behavior. Oh, okay. Well, I wouldn't say yours isn't isn't black and white, because I think there's plenty of other people who can resonate with like inviting it because of feeling needed. I think that's really valid. Right. Um, but for me, I think it was always like a power dynamic where this person just had a stronger personality than I did. And I think that's like me, and I have a decently strong personality, but I think that's me like kind of undercutting it to I think the empathetic part of me was like this person clearly needs this. Sounds so bad, but it's true. This this person clearly needs the attention more than I do. I'm just I'm at first, it's like a little smaller, and then over time it's like a little smaller than that, and like so on and so forth until it feels like you're kind of suffocating. I feel like that was important to note. That was important to note. I'm glad that you shared. Surjan. Um Surjan. When you say it was like the little things at first, like what were some of those little things? Like, if I was talking about okay, like if I was talking about something like I was proud of and they cut in with something like they one-upped, the one upper is like a thing. That's a thing. I know people like regardless. I think like when we say like the one upper, everyone knows of like at least a one-upper that's either currently or was in your life. Um, so the one upping was a thing. So then I was just like, all right, like we're gonna let you have it. Like, I'm not gonna, like, I'm not gonna fight with you. Like you're better. Like, it's hot. Okay, you want the bigger alligator pool. Like, so like the one upping, and then also like no matter what, like the emotional crisis was bigger on their and then mine, even though so, even if I wasn't because they were more expressive about it. So just because I had like the same tone, kind of no matter what, I could be exploding inside, but like it didn't matter. Like, whatever was going on with them was like by far more important. I think that's a good point. And then it was just like continuously these kind of dynamics of like more importance with milestones and goals, more importance with crisis, more importance with whatever. And then also constantly feeling like I was falling short because of what they needed in a friendship. First, what I was like, this was a sign I should have noticed. I didn't tell you stuff because I feel like when I would try to, it got overshadowed. So I just stopped bothering. Got it. So then it was like trying to figure out a balance of telling enough so they felt informed enough, but also not taking up enough any space. Like it was a very like fine line to walk, basically. And like also at the time, I don't want to say I should have because I didn't have the tools at that time, but to note now for anyone listening, like if you feel like you're catching yourself being like, I don't even want to tell this person X, Y, Z because like it's it like why bother? Why bother is a is a signal your brain is sending you. That was definitely experiences that I've had with previous friendships and previous people that I lived with that, like, I don't want to tell you certain things because you're not gonna take it as seriously as it is to me. Like there were plenty of times that I was going through like past work PTSD issues, and I wanted to bring it to people that I thought were close to me and I wanted to say, like, hey, this is going on. And they would immediately blow it off as if it were just like a general work thing or or no big thing. And I'm like, okay, but you're upset that I don't want to be your friend anymore, but I can't tell you anything anyway. So it's that, like you said, that power struggle of okay, you're better than me. If that's what you want to hear, you're better than me. But I don't want to be in your life because you think you're better than me. But coming to that conclusion of like, wow, you're really using me to make yourself feel good. Well, I guess like question for you would be like, how have you had a friendship like or a friend manipulate your sense of the reality? Real yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I was definitely like thrown off with my reality because when I would hear these are just general work things or or that's oh, or that's not that big of a deal, or when I would hear this from this person, I was in my life for like I grew up with this person. So this was a forever forever relationship, or at least I thought so. And then they would say, and then they would tell me, like, oh, this is just general work shit, like it's no big deal, or you know, can't you just get over this, or can't you talk to human resources? And I would sit there and say, I did talk to human resources, I did do these things, and then they would just kind of blow it off and start talking to me about like their issues or their their life crisis. And it's yeah, it's a moment of, is it that big of a deal? And when I'm being diagnosed and talking to crisis counselors because I feel like I'm gonna hurt myself from a work situation, and my so-called best friend at the time can't even listen to me talk about what's really going on with me. Yeah, that's a big, that's a big issue. And I was creating excuses to not see her. And I was not answering her text messages, and I was just like, I don't want to be around this person because if you can't validate my feelings, why the fuck do I want you in my life? But how many years did it take to even get to the point of like not answering tax at least 10. I hate to say it, but like at least 10 because I was so sucked into I was sucked into the history of this person. I was sucked into this is I was sucked into a false reality that this is my friendship because that's what she was feeding me to make herself feel good. Do you think that you didn't feel based on what you've told me us, like based on what you said so far, and just basically what I know about you, do you think that you felt like sh they were actually more important than you for a while during those 10 years? I think in the Mariana trench of my mind, yes, I did. Uh-huh. And I think that there were a lot of dark periods in my life that I absolutely believe that she was more important than me. Yeah. And that's unfortunate. And I just need to like get this out here because I feel like people fall into depression easy, especially this. Nobody's better than anybody else. We're not doing this game.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

You might have a higher education, but let me tell you something. I've known so many people with their PhDs that are so fucking stupid. And like, I've known a lot of people to get their master's degree, don't know anything. And I've known a lot of people with no education at all that can outsmart me within seconds. If we're gonna base this whole line education on your rank in whatever you're in, your job title, you are not better than anybody else. Because at the end of the day, I hate to say it, but like, do you still bleed? Do you still take a shit the same way the rest of us do? Then I would really take a seat, calm yourself down, and take a few breaths. And a lot of these people don't have therapy. So yeah, I know. But also, like you said, there is like a God complex or like a I'm better than you complex. Or because like, and I'm gonna use or like it could be like an instability thing too, where it's like they don't feel grounded, so they literally use somebody else to be grounded. Absolutely for grounded. A lot of people use the validation of others to make themselves feel something. And like I've seen it, I see it every day, but um you know that's unfortunate. So another topic of our discussion today is jealousy, sabotage, and obsession in friendships. When friendship turns into a rivalry. Well, like he did rivalry. No, no, that's just us. There's gonna they're gonna be like another one too. So just gay. You're the one thing with that topic is that you're allowed to love someone and also admit that they emotionally exhaust you. There can be two truths here, but then it's a battle of like you said with cults, where it's like everything's a cult, where it's like, okay, but like at what scale? Like at what scale are you emotionally exhausted? Is it like sometimes they get on your nerves or is it like you're being depleted? Right. And that's gonna fall a lot into like what to actually do in that. I think it's a really good point. I think that like when like what can cause jealousy in a friendship? Because I think that like in this day and age, I don't know, I can get more likes on my Instagram post and that causes jealousy. You know what I mean? But is it like a harmless jealousy or is it like a real jealousy that I'm gonna bring out later and like fight with you about over like Thanksgiving? Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So like I so it continues. So I think that like some I'm so sorry. So like I do like I well, I think that like anything can like really cause it. Like, say you are in like a sports thing, right? Like, I'm a better fucking softball pitcher than you. That was really gay. Didn't you that was so funny? I was I was just about to, I'm so about it out for honor. That was so I was thinking, you know, ride heated rivalry and I was thinking of like, oh, what's like a lesbian version I thought of softball? So I'm so sorry. What I think, sorry. But like I guess, like, I don't know, like you and I are really competitive, right? So like when we went paddle boarding and like you were fascinating me. I'm like, this bitch doesn't have a better upper body than me. Like it's stuff, it's stuff like this. You know what I mean? What degree is that degree that is it harmful or is it just like playful? You know what I mean? Like you and I like I remember when we first got together, I'm like, we would wrestle, and like who did each other? That's so gay. Yeah, like that's just this is becoming a very gay conversation, and it's not even supposed to be. We would wrestle again. You broke my toe. Don't even start. I didn't break shit. She broke my toe anyway. No guys. She kicked my shin and her toe broke, but I fixed it because I'm a doctor. I shouldn't have let you fix that. Well, I play it looks free. I don't know. I guess I'm a doctor. Anyway. But what are some so fucked up? Um, so what are some like ways that your friendships or past friendships would have turned sour due to jealousy? Due to jealousy? Yeah, due to jealousy, rivalry, whatever you want to call it. Oh, okay. Um or obsession. Because I feel like obsession went really, really far with your past friendship. Do you wanna Well, okay, so from the outside perspective jealousy or obsession, you're telling me? Me, like, is that like what? Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Do you want to tell me, or can I tell, or do you want me to say it? From the outside perspective, like the obsession with this person that was in your life, like it to me was outstanding because she wasn't only obsessed with you, she was obsessed with the power she had over you. Oh, I saw this. This is relevant to what you just said. I've seen this reel where it's like the canon event where you have a friend that treats you like you're like in a relationship. And like it kind of felt like that. It was like they were like obsessed with me in certain areas, like almost like they kind of, and I don't mean that I don't have a big ego in this aspect, it really just started to feel like this after like years and years and years. Like in one aspect, they wanted to like have certain traits of mine or like be me, yeah, or be more like me. And in others, like if I wasn't doing well, our relationship was better than what I was doing well. I have to say, so as far as like obsession and jealousy, I think that is like a really good summary of how that yeah, no, that makes sense. I definitely had a friendship and she was supposed to be a bridesmaid and she dropped out, but yeah, I was like thinking, I'm like, who could- No, she got like so mad because she would thrive when I was doing poorly. And like it didn't occur to me that she was so mad that I was happy with you. And like she then like lashed out because she just couldn't take it eventually. And it was just it was no- When you mean lashed out, like what like what lashed out how she needed to point out my faults, she needed to point out my issues. Like the thing that happened to her is what she did to me because she couldn't fix herself. Like she had a bunch of people bully her. Oh, okay, and tell her everything. She's a way of coming at you. Yeah, and she just needed to do that. So, like, that was an issue, and like being obsessed with that kind of power that was I can make this person better. And I don't know about you, but you shouldn't need, like, and this goes across the board for anyone, like, you shouldn't need three days to recover from spending one hour with a friend. So, like, and I feel like this type of dynamic brings that type of feeling out a lot as far as like that recovery time because of the the power dynamic plus like the relationship dynamic, like plus the doing better than me dynamic like it's just like a whole like it's such a it's a it's a few overlapping like characteristics, I guess is what I'm gonna say in this. It's a lot of it's a lot of I I don't want to overuse the word control and power, but like that's what it is. It's a lot of I need control, I need power, I need to be better, I need to be the best, and I don't know what kind of you know what I mean? It's not my place to fix those issues with somebody else and to be that I'm gonna call it the variable because you weren't special, I wasn't special. Those people aren't special that they use, they're just leeches, you know? And like who's more vulnerable to what dynamic? Right, you know, and that's exactly it. Who's more vulnerable to what dynamic? So for these people that were super fucking toxic, there's a whole pyramid scheme of people that they just feed on. Well, with that being said, like what yes, exactly with that being said, like what extreme actions did that like jealousy friend dynamic take? Oh like to give better context. For what can you for yours, any of yours, like as far as like how did they act out onto me? Yeah, like what extreme actions did the jealousy friend like take on to you to like show their rank, their ranking, basically uh I'm gonna say ranking, but you know what I mean. I had also made me think of a real like the leader in the friend group, and then it's like like everyone's like a zombie to the back. I had a friend that would deliberately speak down to me and use a vocabulary that they know I didn't know, and they would do it on purpose to basically like I'm more dominant, I'm smarter than you, I'm more dominant than you. And it was just a way to be like to like reel me back in. And it was really to be like you can't trust your own and your own mind because mine is better. You can't trust your own intuition because mine will work faster than yours. And it was a really sick game that I didn't realize I was being this mouse in the cat and mouse game. Like I didn't know. And I fell victim to it. And I was like, wow, I really am dumb. Wow, I really should follow this person around. And I didn't follow my own intuition to know better. So that's one instance. I've had another friend like literally call me up crying, telling me, like, am I, you know, they would cry and be like, Am I this shitty person? Am I this bad person? And it would be like me on the phone, like, no, you're not a bad person. Like, no, you're not this person. You're you're you're fine. I'm here for you. I love you. You're the best thing that ever happened, kind of stuff. And it's like, you know, when you step back and realize those relationships, like, yes, we were young and stupid in our 20s. Yes, we always need that friend that you can cry to. And I'm not saying I can't be a friend that you can come to. What I'm saying is when it comes, when it becomes a consistent action that you are pushing onto somebody else to make you valid, that is an ongoing issue. Yeah. That's it. Especially if they can't come back. Like, especially if it's like you're not gonna listen when the or that person's not gonna listen when the friend who's receiving the the emotional dumping never gets it back, essentially. Right. Because that's what makes it from that's what makes it emotional dumping versus a reciprocal. Well, that's one of the things that makes an emotional dumping versus a reciprocal friendship. Right. And that's what also like put that blockage in for me to stop myself from going to people like other than like my therapist. I never went to people to be vulnerable. I never went to my friends to be vulnerable. So I never built those bridges with a lot of my friendships. And yeah, I'll take blame for that, but when they're sucking me dry, like you said, there's no space in the room for me to express myself. So why would I try to take up space when you're clearly taking up all the space? Well, is it that you should take credit for that, or just that like you know that you are were in need of like different people than you had at the time, you are in need of different people or were in whatever. You needed different people than what you had at the time, support-wise. I think that there's a lot that goes into that. You know what I mean? You can say I needed different people, I needed a different friend group, I needed to be off drugs, I needed a better therapy. You could go a million different things. No, I know. I'm saying you didn't clearly don't have the resources, I'm just saying. Like instead of fully putting it the risk. Yeah, oh yeah, no, no, no. You can't fully put the responsibility on yourself. You can take like you can take accountability with certain things, and you should take accountability with certain things, but to reflect back, how can you if you didn't know better? Like, and I didn't know anything. So I thought this is what a friendship was. Yeah, and I think with that being said, as far as another point with the extreme actions, like someone was taking, um, our shared friend Chloe. Yeah, is a big one because they also had like the superiority kind of thing. Like, like no matter what, they were better. I remember when we moved into our rental, like on the beach, which was a tiny little beach bungalow, but it was perfect, it was ours, and it was perfect for I was I was a 25. Like, you know what I mean? And it was cute. It was nice, it was good rent. Yeah, it was great, Brent. It was exactly what it was good for. And I remember as soon as Chloe got her house, she came over to ours and was like, your house sucks. And I was like, why'd you even say that? Like, you could have just shut up. But also, like six months prior, she was like, Hey, me and like my person want to rent it. Mm-hmm. So, like, get out, get out. Yeah, so it was like such a big basically it's like no matter what, like their version was better. Because if they were living there, then wherever else we lived probably would have sucked too, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

So like there was like the putting, there was like the putting down. Um Chloe needs to. I hope that I don't know if Chloe's okay, and it's none of my business. That's yeah, that's that's exactly. Um, like, so as far as let's go on the dynamic, let's touch on the dynamic first, then go into like what extreme measures or actions were taken. The dynamic was there's a lot of hidden secrets that Chloe had that she didn't want to make vulnerable with us, but she would get drunk and make vulnerable with us. Mm-hmm. She had a lot of yeah, no, no, no. She was definitely in the closet and she married a man. And when we went over there one time to make sure that she wasn't gonna hurt herself because she literally called us saying she was gonna hurt herself, so we dropped what we as we would do a hundred times over. We dropped what we were doing to go like make sure she wasn't gonna hurt herself. And then she sexually assaulted us. Yeah. And by sexual assault, I'm gonna say inappropriate touching. Inappropriate touching. I don't want to say, I don't wanna I don't wanna make it sound like it was m more than that. I don't want to make it sound like it was aggressive. It wasn't aggressive, but it was inappropriate. Yeah, like I definitely had I was definitely in a freeze state, not really knowing what to do with it. Yeah, I didn't like being straggled like that. That was inappropriate. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't I didn't like the way she placed my hand on her. That's what I'm saying. Like it wasn't and then when I tried to move it, she put it back. Like it wasn't aggressive, but it was wildly inappropriate. And then when we brought it up to her and she was like, I don't remember that. And like But she remembered everything else. But she remembered everything else. And that's why I'm saying, like, that is a but like isn't that not a is that not a like extreme I don't want to say it's a jealousy thing. I don't think it's that, but I think like is that an extreme obsession. Is that not an extreme obsession or an extreme measure to take to like top somebody? Like almost, you know what I mean? Like a controlling, like you're down here, I'm up here. That's an extreme obsession, and like that's a really tough way to like I remember on our wedding day, and I didn't know this until after, but one of the other bridesmaids who I'm still very luckily in a friendship with. You mean our golden little girl? I love her. Um, she like told me after the way after the fact, she's like, Yeah, did you know Chloe said like she's like I guess she said it to me, but I was in a fog because it was like our wedding day. So I'll have like a million other things in front of her mind. But I guess like uh our golden, our golden girl was sitting right next to her and she's like, Do you remember when Chloe said, like, if you weren't marrying Vicky, would you marry me? And you were like, No. And I was like, I don't remember any of that, but like, why? Like, just like you know, like these clearly like in the closeted things that like you don't just say that. I would never say that. So, like, you know, you don't just say that, you know, unless there's something going on. I remember internally, what no matter what it is. There's some complex feeling. No, when I was in the closet, I would say stuff like that to to to girls, like, oh, if you weren't dating so and so would you date me? And like that's when I was like in the closet in high school, and like that's when you say stuff like that, like when you're in the closet. Yeah. And like Yeah, that's that's it. That's just like, like you said, a very extreme measure of obsession. Anyway, moving forward. Topic three. Topic three, the parasitic friendship, and when the person who feeds on another Ew. My god. This is so gross. Okay. Call me Hannibal. No. Okay. So with the parasitic friendships, uh, some friendships don't end because of like one big fight, they'll end because one person slowly becomes the other's therapist. So this is where I think that therapist rule comes back into play a little bit here. Because it's like, yeah, like you said, sucking the other person dry. Yeah. Don't do that sound effect again. Sorry. And then, and the reason I say comes back was because in topic one, we were talking about gaslighting and psychological abuse. They can use the like crisis stage to use someone as a therapist. Or like the gas, yeah, or like gaslighting. Like, as far as I think I think I explained that well. Yeah, explain better. I don't want to over talk. No, I thought that was really good. Um, I definitely think that it is used like a spider web. Like, I'm in a constant crisis. That means you have to come over. Because the minute that I'm gonna use that example of Chloe, that when we came over, she immediately like snapped out of it, and now she's just shumped on the couch. You know what I mean? Yeah. And it's like, oh, you don't want to hurt yourself anymore? Like, girl, and like it's no matter what, no matter what, that's not the issue. However, you're like mentally dealing with that isn't necessarily the problem. Cause like every I don't know what No, it's how she went about. No, it's how yeah, exactly. I was gonna say it's how she went about it as far as like then taking it out on us, essentially. In a way that was like super physically inappropriate. Exactly. And then like there's other forms of doing it, like financially too. Like I had a friend, uh Oh, Paris said it can be financial for sure. Yeah, like I had a friend that like when I was like smoking weed, like I think it was like early 20s, and like I was always the one that have to buy a bag. You know what I mean? Like I was the one always buying it, I was the one always smoking her up, I was the one always driving, I was the one always doing everything. And eventually, like I brought it to him. I'm like, dude, you gotta start doing shit. And like she like reacted, like, like, oh, I don't have any money. Oh, it's like, then why the fuck are you forcing me to pay all the time? Yeah, or the person that's always like, I'm gonna, I'll get you back next time. There's never an extra next time. They always forget their wallet. Like you don't even have a wallet. Have a wallet. Fuck off. Like, but after a while, like you know better. Yeah, you know what I mean? I know. So that's also why I'm saying, like, in general, we have to take some accountability here. No, but people are usually like, okay, now everybody has Zell or Venmo, so like at least for no excuses. If you're still doing that now, like you're exactly like you're like, you gotta do better. Exactly. Like you gotta do better. Yeah, look up your bank account. Keep sending them requests, Venmo requests, like time and time again. Time and time again. You'll be waking up to my request, buddy. Yeah. Um, so there's the financial, there's like unfortunately, like there's can be like a sexual, like we talked about. Yes, and then the social exploitive, where it's like what we were talking about, how they'll embarrass the other person to make themselves feel better. Ooh, that's on that. That's so as far as like taking responsibility, that's something made to work through in therapy really bad. Yeah, do you want to go into depth about that? You guys say no. I mean, like, not really, but I will. Because I think the stupid podcast is not. Well, go ahead. Give me an example. Like, I know if like, because I'm not gonna like make an excuse. Like, I just was not in a good place. So it was like, and I was most comfortable with you, so it was easier to take it out on you. So if we were in like a public setting, like you'd be the butt of the trip, basically. Like so that I could feel okay. I know, really hurt my feelings. I'm sorry. That's okay. We're working through it. I know you don't. I'm sorry that I did that for so long and it damaged our relationship and how you felt. And I'm sorry for that. You know, to say it's okay. Yeah, thank you. It's good. Okay. Oh, thank you. Okay. Anyway, we're moving on. But there are like other social exploitative by f by friends, and I think that like there was a situation, and we brought that up before, like when we went to work tour, and like your friend person at the time was like, Oh, look at that girl's butt, and I was like, This is a trap. And when she was like, It was a trap, like good, you didn't fall for it. And it's like, why are you trying to embarrass me? Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, and it's and it's to to place her ranking with you. Yeah, and like it's to lower your ranking with me and put hers in. Exactly. And it's just like, why is it? Yeah, and it's like that's completely necessary. And this isn't just to say that this happens. Wait, that's only pausing you because that's still relevant as far as if you ever have a friend where you okay. Yeah. All right. If you ever have a friend you ever have a friend where they like they try to wedge themselves between you and your relationship, that is a friend that is like kind of acting like they're in a relationship with you, especially if they do it with you, but it's like absolutely off limits if you were to like do the same thing with them. Like it would be out of line, like and it and it is out of line regardless, first of all. But like if they are able to do that, but if you were to do the same thing, it would be like ostracized, like you would be ostracized. Yeah. So the fact that she would do that with you and I, and it was like expectant. So if that's another sign of like parasitic friendships, because they can suck you dry, but they can reserve their energy and have their own dynamics to keep them safe. But they are your pet, like you're their pet. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's that like you are this play thing. Yeah. You know what I mean? So like that's parasitic when Yeah. And it and it happens really slowly because these people do have narcissistic traits and they are very charming and they kind of just lure you right in, and then they always have this like exactly what you were saying before. Oh, I'll get you next time. Oh, I forgot my wallet. Like they always have these excuses as to why, how, when. I mean, that's a really, that's a really like, I'm gonna say elementary version of an excuse. I think sometimes they start to spin it like as far as the example we're on right now, they should start to spin it like, well, I have your best interests at mind. Like, yeah, I'm always gonna be here for you. Like, da da day I was here before her, I'll be here after. And it's like, it's the charm they can pull at your heartstrings because they know where to hit. Yeah, like where it's like, okay, like I am supposed to feel safe with this person, but yet if there's something inside of you that feels like you don't, you still have to like know to listen to that. And that's again why we have this fucking podcast. Well, that's the thing, is like trusting your own intuition, that's not always easy because I think that we've all been trained to trust it, to not only not trust our intuition, but we were raised by a lot of people who weren't given that aspect. If you were um if you're in the millennial-ish age or like or like uh Zoomer age, a lot of us were raised by like boomers or like Gen X that didn't quite have that emotional awareness, yeah, wherewithal. Because emotional awareness is not only being aware of your emotions, but what you're gonna do next because of those emotions. So and a lot of times they are like they have traits of like being able to be pushed over. Exactly. And I think that a lot of us were trained to be pushovers. I know that I was raised to be a pushover, and that's what allowed all these friendships to really overcome my life and you know, allowed yeah, exactly. I was gonna say we for everyone else first, you last. Exactly. And we never, you know, took that to heart until we realized how trashy these friendships were for us, you know? And that's really unfortunate. Anyway, moving back to our podcast. So when when did you recognize that you were being used? Uh because when it's financial for me, I notice almost immediately, but when it's emotional, I'm like, it's fine. A hundred percent. When it's financial and it's like black and white, it's like, okay, like this person probably sucks and I should probably maybe do something about it. Uh-huh. Um, because it is more black and white, but emotional, it's like they can spin it so many different ways where it's like it's actually at your benefit. So when did I know I was being used? I think it took you until you were in like real therapy. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I knew a different friend, like that, because I broke up with them after my initial therapist. So that was a but that took 20 years. Yeah. So this had to have taken 25 years. Like and it's definitely so you were also closer with that first friendship than you were the one the second one. Uh the 20-year one, yeah. First 25. Yes. Um, that was a little more black and white, yeah, because that person had like a third party involved. Yeah. And it was a parent. And basically, like I the the parent had so much of a heavy influence I couldn't like do it. I think it would have taken me longer if the parent did not consistently in genetic herself. Definitely, 1000%. Um, but as far as this one, probably 25 years, because a lot of the time, again, it's in my best interest, or that's just how they are, or I know no matter what, they'll still be there for me. So like all of this can be excusable. Right. So until I started seeing that very much more clearly that if I wasn't doing well, it was better for them. It became more obvious. Then that's where I think because here's here's what really did it for me. When we were, you know, potentially gonna get a divorce, and I had when I had told her like that might that might be the route I'm going, very supportive, very happy, all of a sudden, like, you know, like on my side, da-da-da. When I said I think we want to work through it, her patience for me got nothing. Yeah. And this isn't like I've always had issues with you, by the way, because she didn't know about any until she didn't know about anything, until like everything blew up. So it's not like she had been hearing for years and years and years and years how much you suck. No, yeah. We did that with most people, but like it we don't care anyone. Yeah, but it became to the point where it was so clear that she could only be doing, she was doing great if I was doing poorly and if I was doing well, like she not so much. And I also would catch things like I think this is also where I caught it too. Like when I started a business and she told me, like, yeah, I didn't think you were gonna actually be able to succeed in that, even though it supported our my side of it, it's supported bills for f four years. You were successful and then I and then I chose to pull out of it. No, you were wildly successful, and that was a I'm still flabbergasted by the fact that she said that. I think that verbiage specifically, because that was black and white. That was like a black and white cue. Yeah, and then she created an Etsy to try and compete with you, and it's just I can't prove that, but um I can. I will. I can't I I can't confirm or deny that that, but my point is like I did not have sexual relationships with that one. Yeah, I can't confirm or deny that. But it's because that thing that was said was so black and white, I think that's the first seed that was kind of planted in my head where I was like, Did you just like really say that to me? Like, I'm not capable, like so. Moving forward. So yeah when you started implementing boundaries, was that hard for like so you were already kind of one step out the door when you started to implement boundaries with this person? How did you feel with implementing like did you know it was gonna be the end of the friendship when you started to implement those boundaries? I was hoping it wouldn't until they had said this is weighing too much on me after I had after I had consistently like multiple times a week, like phone calls about a crisis for most of our friendship. And then the one time I'm going through a hard time, and it's because I'm not doing what she wants me to do in response, then it was this is too much for me. I can't. And it was truthfully because like I was calling out where it wasn't equal, and she didn't like that. And So then I let it like I knew then I kind of knew it was it was I knew when it you knew I knew when it was done because I had a very big emotional reaction to that and then it's like good now but for you like same question like when did you recognize you were being used for any of for any of them I guess um oh for Chloe ver for for our mutual one did you recognize you're being used yes Chloe? 1000% absolutely yeah um how early on like right away oh really yeah right away no but you know I I didn't she didn't respect me um I don't think I know what respect really meant at the time I don't think I knew I knew my version of respect and I know that she didn't give a shit about me no matter what um and I didn't like that um but I treated her the way that she treated me so I was like okay yeah I don't I don't think I caught that on my end how about the other um like what kept the friendship like going kind of thing for the other one that you were saying that it was like oh time oh the long-term friendship uh you know what when she had her first kid and she was going through postpartum and didn't realize she was going through postpartum that's when I knew that you were being used that's when I knew I was being used because every other time like she was there for like there were a lot of things that she was there for me for when I was vulnerable with her butt after that she lost like the capacity after that she lost the capacity because she was worried about her own life as she should have been but like if she didn't have the capacity to worry about me then don't string me over. Yeah don't don't pretend like you do and um so I think after she had her first baby and there's nothing like if you have children like go for it girlfriend like I want go for it like I want you to be happy but like I'd rather have you tell me you like literally cannot deal with like any outside noise than yes that tell me the truth yeah don't dick me around like like the transparency with friendships is required for me at this point in my life I need you to be transparent with me um I need you to tell me the truth I need you to stop dicking me around like if you can't because you don't have the capacity because you need to worry about your husband homeschooling your kids being postpartum all of the things if you need to focus on you I'm here um I will fuck all the way off but you need to tell me I will fuck all the way off but you need to tell me because I can't read your fucking mind. I can't even read your mind you're my wife I can't read their mind why but also the same respect has to be given too if they don't have the capacity to be there for you because they need to take care of themselves then you need to be able to do the same for yourself knowing that like they're not going to be able to they're not gonna be a support for you. But that's what I and that's how I ended that friendship I had to send a text out that was like listen like I need you to see a therapist with a text? No I'm kidding. I was like what? Um but like I need you to see somebody because I know you don't care about my mental health I know you don't care about your mental health so can I how can I ask you to worry about mine? So like I want you to And she forced her husband to go see a counselor. Yeah like way to deflect you know what I mean like well then what kept you in the the the friendship before that final it took me a long time it took me a long time to come to terms with ending the friendship because I thought that history meant everything. So it was the history that kept you I think the history kept me too yeah I'm very nostalgic and I like and I really hold on to the things that matter most and she was somebody that mattered a lot to me throughout my years. Yeah and um then with Chloe what kept you because there was no nostalgia there. Oh easy friendship? I don't know was it easy it wasn't anything I cared about. So it was something that was filling time because I didn't care about me. So I was caring about something else that could distract me from worrying about my mental health. Okay. I think what kept me is that I did care about them. You did care. I cared about Chloe a lot and she cared about me too so I think that kept me she did care about you. She cared about getting in your pants. Yeah but I think for a while I didn't see that so I think what kept me was that like she's totally not okay and like I'm not gonna be the person to abandon her kind of thing. I think what you said before is I don't think she's okay and that's not my business. Now that's how I feel now I think that what kept me there is I know but I think that like totally encapsulates like what I think that's the truth. Yeah. And then what about your my boundaries implementation of implementing that implementation? That's not a word. It's not a word is it probably not what about what about your steps implementing boundaries? So when I took my boundaries for this longer person I did that I sent a text and I wasn't I wasn't expecting her to be like oh I'm gonna go to the third no you guys had a whole conversation let's actually rewind you guys had a whole conversation oh yeah but I knew she didn't take it seriously yeah but that's not the point that was like there was a whole conversation and I knew it was phony the whole time where she was like okay I'll try she wants it was phony. She wanted me to reach out more and I was like okay I'll reach out more and I was like but I need you to be vulnerable with me and care about me. And she's like okay I'll do that. And then she would reach out more and try and hang out with me more but then the one time that I actually took her up on that and went there and tried to give my vulnerability and say everything that I wanted to say and and be vulnerable with her and do the things that I needed in a friendship and like kind of like be the example which you should never do um you shouldn't be an example for anybody. No that's not a friendship dynamic. That's exactly it what I was thinking is I was taking that to heart and she really trampled all over that and that was a really good way for me to figure out where she is with me and she wanted she wanted me to be more vulnerable so I could be her therapist and I stopped reaching out to her and continued to stop reaching out to her. I never told her about anything that was going on with you and I because I didn't think that she was deserving of that information. And I don't think she cared though either it doesn't matter. But um I didn't say anything and um then eventually when I had the emotional awareness to move forward I sent her that text and all she said was wow okay and I was like but like you know what then I had my therapy session and the therapist at the time was just like well now you know where you stand with this person. And like I thought that was such a great black and white kind of thing. Yeah. That's what I needed though. Like I'm like in a world that's so gray sometimes I need black and white. Yeah. So like and I think with and I I agree you know and then I think with with that like you said it was a kind of a a train of events telling you to got till you got to that point with Chloe I think that was that was kind of like said and done after the we just like we're like hey I'm not she reached out and I think you were like hey I like don't feel comfortable talking to you after that. Like yeah I can't like I remember everything else but assigning you. And it's like and then we were like okay I literally can't talk to you like oh no that's not true. Like you know what I mean but also I'd be I'm pretty sure we just said like I can't I think if that's I that's what I I know that I didn't say anything. Like I was perfectly comfortable with never talking to her again or answering her sex messages again and you were like no we have to end this friendship and I'm like okay like if go for it girlfriend like I'm here to support you. I'll like it when you said I'll end the thumbs up anyway anyway that's my life young duff is killing it right now anyway that's better now than she did when she was in Lizzie McGuire or any of those movies. What was the other one? Cinderella story you mean she looks better as an adult than a teenager and you're 35 yeah I would hope you think that unless you're a pedophile like the rest of our government system Mic drop and on that note talk to you guys and weeks