SPEAKER_00 0:26

Don't forget to text your best friend. Oh my goodness, oh my goodness. We are in the depths of August. Yes, it's summer ending. How are you doing? I feel like I'm transitioning into my fall attire and I'm living. It was cloudy today and I was here for it. I know all the windows were open. It was so nice. So nice. Well it was like a crisp, little cool air. The sheep were running around. We were having a good day, you know what I mean? A good Sunday. It was like a lazy Sunday because it wasn't rainy. It was just cloudy enough to like have the same TV show, like binge a little bit, eat a little jump food. You know what I mean? Love those days. Oh god. Like the first crispy leaf has fallen. Sometimes I see some leaves and they have like turned yellow and orange and have fallen already, and I love it. I love to see it. I love to be it. Love to be around it. The sheep's eating them, so I don't have to see them, which is nice. Oh that's alright. I know. I want to get them a sweater, but they're already wearing a sweater. You can't wear a double sweater. It's way too many sweaters. But if I got a chicken a sweater, that would be pretty cute. You can get a chicken harness, but I was looking at the sheep. No. Imagine you're just walking your chicken around the wall. This is less stroke. You literally just have to stay. Yeah, but like they you can just put them under your arm. Like go for a walk with you. They don't have to walk. And I don't think they want to walk. I don't like hards and men. I think they're wearing double feeties. They're little feeties. They would really smell like fried chicken. Anything to add? Now you're talking about the fucking weather, so I'm bored. Anyway, moving into today's topic. Oh, go ahead. Today's topic is when mental health diagnosis become weapons, manipulation and relationships. That's pretty heavy. Yeah, it is pretty heavy. And I feel like with it's applicable for, I mean, always, but especially with the Lindsay Clancy case going around right now. I know. I feel like that's making it even more applicable because it's kind of bringing these things to it's a really good example of bringing these things to a highlight. So I wasn't completely aware of the circumstance until you brought it to my attention today. So could you just reiterate it? Yeah, for anyone, spoiler alert, obviously, for anyone who's not following the case, essentially in the in the most elementary of description, it's about this woman, Lindsay, who um supposedly had murdered her three children in like a fit of postpartum psychosis. Um, however, she had, and she had asked um for help, like her husband medical facility. She's been on several medications. She was asking other women who have been through the same thing. Like she was clearly looking for help and made it very clear she did not trust herself. Um, with that being said, when the kids were found in the basement, Lindsay was also like all out the window outside. So she wasn't speaking either. The husband was essentially speaking on behalf of everything that happened. But the more that is unraveling in the case, the more it's starting to look like it he could have had at least something to do with it, allegedly. Allegedly. I'm saying as far as like the way it's looking on social media too, and like from my own, from my own standpoint on it, it looks like he definitely could have had something to do with it. He had gotten remarried very shortly after. Um, he elicits like no emotion whatsoever in the courtroom. He was remarried. Um so he was remarried like four months later. So wait a minute. This case was so I did a little bit of work with it. So I'm not on the case. I didn't do any work with it. I looked it up. Um, with it happened in 2023. So as this person, Lindsay, was put in jail, prosecuted, X, Y, and Z, he was already like focusing on his next marriage, his next wedding, and everything like that. I don't even think, yeah, there was like no time. I think he was like in was he speaking. It was like, do we know about like betrayal? There we don't know technically, but there's it's very if you have two brain cells to rub together, it's very clear that there is an overlap. I agree. I'm not disagreeing. I'm just trying to see what the facts are. Like allegedly he did it, allegedly, but uh I just need to know the facts of what's coming out in the court case rather than jumping to conclusions that there is a betrayal. Okay, so allegedly he didn't do it. Okay, so that's what that's what I'm saying. Like social media, right? Like social media is saying allegibly he did it in the court case, like that's not where we're at right now. So Fox News is saying he didn't do it. Oh my god, you're stressing me out. So allegedly he didn't do it, and Lindsay did because of her postpartum psychosis and the stink that she was in. However, with none of the children now being around and Lindsay being in the state she was in, when the cops arrived to the scene, they were only going off of Patrick's words. Got it. So, regardless, at the end of the day, like she is gonna be in a wheelchair for life, she's never gonna have her kids again. So the point of those court cases at first was like she did it, but like it she pled guilty. It's more about like under what terms could she plead, like that she wasn't in the right mindset. Okay. Or um, but as things are unfolding, the more evidence her attorney is getting against Patrick. Like there were Google searches that were done um while she was at a doctor's appointment with one of the kids or how to disable uh airbags and like their Kia. Um, like how to like there were certain things that like certain searches that were made that she hadn't made because she couldn't have because she wasn't physically home at the time. So they had to have been him. So it's the light is kind of shifting as like what how much of this did he have a hand in? But because of the postpartum psychosis, like when this all initially happened, like she didn't say, like, she didn't say, like, no, I didn't do that or anything like that. And she believed that she did, but also we've seen other people in other mental health crises where it's very easy to tell them that they did something, especially when they can't trust themselves. So this is all really trying to slit the pieces together of like, did she have anything to do with this? Was she also a victim? Like, um, regardless, like she was a victim of her husband not supporting her to get her the help that she clearly needed, right? Regardless, these poor kids, like, did Patrick have something to do with it? Like, there's like a lot more going on now, and the more evidence that gets uncovered, the more it looks like he had a hand in this. Right. Personally, like from what I saw and what I'm seeing too, is like a really valid point is this isn't something we always do. Like, we don't always rally behind somebody who, right? Yeah, like with uh Casey Anthony, for example. Like no one was rallying behind Casey Anthony, like women, men, transgenders alike. No one was like, yes, Casey Anthony didn't do it. This is a very specific spin. And I think a lot of people are seeing themselves in Lindsay as far as like this system failing them. Yeah, and their support system failing them. So it's taking a little bit of a different turn this go-around because of that alone.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

And again, if she did do it or she said that she did it, then like that's a whole separate issue. Like, that is not okay. What we're saying is, or what the internet is saying is like if she was given the support that she well needed and was treated right medically, this could have been prevented when she was absolutely asking for help the entire time. I agree. That is my synopsis. I hope you enjoyed it. No, that was a really well-said synopsis. Thank you for all that information. I have a few questions. First of all, like RIP, those poor children, that's a horrific, horrific story and a horrific thing for any person to do to another person. Let me just get that out there. Another thing, when these searches were coming up, like how to disable airbags and stuff like that, they can trace those IP addresses. Like if she was at the home. That's what I'm talking about. She was at the doctor's office. That's exactly what I'm saying. Is that like if it was done on her, you know, smartphone or something like that, they can trace that IP address. But if it was done from the laptop from home, then like come on, let's put those pieces together. Again, I'm not gonna say he did it, but like he did it, you know. So allegedly. So allegedly. I'm trying to get sued, Foxes. Um, but so if so, understanding labels and diagnoses. So I'm glad that you brought up like postpartum and stuff like that. So postpartum. This wasn't just postpartum depression, this was postpartum psychosis. So, what's the difference between postpartum psychosis and postpartum auditorian visual like hallucinations are involved? Oh, so it's that psychosis. I'm I understand psychosis. I know like I what I'm asking is that like there's postpartum syndrome, there's postpartum depression, there's postpartum psychosis, like you just said. So, like there are different categories to postpartum, and is it all on this you know, sliding scale of like, you know, after giving birth to a child, these are the things that happen. And how does it happen? Because how can you go so far into a psychosis and not see like that? I'm sorry, that like really blows my mind. Estrogel and progesterone, we're progesterone. I'm not, I might mix those two up, so don't quote me on it. They have a lot to do with our like brain functionality. So when those take a snow at the freaking dive, it can cause hallucinations like auditory and visual. So in things hormonal, but a lot of times women get treated with things like Zolof, so they're more numbing them, but it's not getting to the root of the problem of the hormonal imbalance that's growing from this. At least not in this country, I've seen it handle better in like the UK, for example. Right. But um a lot of these things do depress the nervous system and don't attack what's actually happening. And very few like medications really work. That's why you're such a lab rat, because a lot of medications will either A depress the nervous system or B actually work corrective with your brain and your brain activity. That's why people become such lab rats with like transitioning in and out of medications, and that itself, the transition in and out of medications can cause a psychosis as well. Yeah. And that's something that's like not talked about at all, at least from my familiarity when it comes to that. Like I've been on the same medication, it's been working for me. Thank, thanks Satan. But like it's but like it's you know, it's trial and error, and it really kind of sucks. So when it comes to like the labeling and the diagnoses behind things, like what are some common outside of the Lindsay Clancy? Lindsey Clancy case, what are some other like diagnoses slash labels you've like come across that you think are kind of common or misrepresented? Like um, my girlfriend's a narcissist, she only wants me to do these kinds of things. Well, I mean, that's the thing too, is like if the diagnosis isn't the problem, then is the way someone using it is right. Like that was a really good example of that because we've gotten really good at talking about mental health as like a society at a larger scale. Um, but we're learning the language, but are we misusing it to push our own agenda at times also? Absolutely. So I to answer your question, like what are some common, like, yeah, like narcissism, depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, borderline, bipolarline, uh, PTSD, schizophrenia, like you name it, you can really use because it can be used, and yes, these are all real diagnoses. We've talked about them in our other episodes, but it can be used, it can be weaponized as well. I agree, and I think a lot more in, you know, a lot more in early relationships, toxic relationships, they these words are just thrown around so easily, especially the word narcissist. I feel like I heard the word narcissist and gaslighting so much. We use it so much. Well, that's the thing too, is that you hear it so much via social media or like, you know, I'm gonna say TikTok, like where you hear all of these cases of like they're gaslighting me, they're they're pushing me to do these things, they're so narcissic. And I feel like these are just highlighted words that are now trending. And that's the misrepresentation that I really don't agree with because when it comes to like borderline or bipolar, I hate when people say, like, oh, that's so bipolar, like you're being bipolar right now. Like, that's a fucking choice that I had to deal with. You know what I mean? Like, it's it's not fun to say those things, and I hate to say it, but like it is kind of offensive because it's like, why would you think that this is a fun joke? And I understand the also the funny part of it because bipolar can be used as like, oh, the weather's being bipolar right now, you know, so I can understand both parties, but understand the offensiveness that comes with it too. Well, also, like, it's can be used to control a narrative. So all of a sudden your partner's not upset, they're being narcissistic, you're not hurt, someone's triggering your abandonment issues. Also, like someone isn't holding you accountable, they're gaslighting you. So there's like that fine line because sometimes it can be used like again to like control that narrative. Absolutely. Um, and also, of course, there can be like the offensive connotation to it, but that's more what we're kind of unpacking today because there's a big difference between the diagnosis itself and what it can be used. Well, there's characteristics. Yeah. So I know that going through therapy and everything like that, we highlighted that you have narcissistic treats. But that doesn't mean that you're a narcissist. It means that you have narcissistic traits. So what are some things that we were unpacking when it came to therapy that you found that were like fuck? You know what I mean? Like, oh, I shouldn't be doing that. Um, so traits themselves would be like having issues taking accountability or responsibility, having someone playing victim, having somebody else be like the the perpetrator or the problem. Um putting myself like on a pedestal by like talking down to you or other people. Um and also like spinning it, like if I had a point in mind, like, and I this is one I still struggle with more, where like if I have a point in mind or like I feel a certain way, like I can't easily let that go to hear the other person's perspective until I feel like I've been heard first. So that has been that one's still a challenge, but I've gotten better with it from my perspective. So yeah, no, I agree. I mean, like you don't talk down to me anymore, and when you do, it's nipped in the bug pretty quickly. Like, but these are all traits, but that doesn't mean that you're naturally a narcissist. Like being a narcissist is so far on the spectrum of just not giving shit about people, really only being there for yourself, really only caring about yourself. When like I knew that you love me, I know that you have compassion for me, you have empathy, you have the ability to feel these things, do these things, mean these things to me and for me, you know, thinking outside of yourself, although it was difficult because there was a lot of hate and resentment, you were able to do so, which highlights the difference between traits characteristics versus full-blown narcissism and diagnosis. Also, in my grants that we were going through a lot. So, like in my head, like I was showing you those things, but not in a way you were able to receive them. So that was a whole other thing that like made my traits worse. Well, that's outside of it. That's I mean, I made them worse. So it was just like a whole, but if you ever, but the point of this episode is if you ever walked out of a conversation where you felt like you were going in, like you had a good head on your shoulders, like you knew what the problem was and you wanted to address it, and then you walked away like, wait, am I actually the problem here? Like that's what we're gonna be really digging into. Yeah. So I think that's hard to I think that's hard to really discover when you walk away and everything like that. Think to yourself, like, am I gonna have a conversation with myself in the shower later about this conversation? Yeah, like, or you're like, you know, you went in, but then you're like you leave and you're like, wow, I suck. Like, what do we what the fuck happened? Yeah. Came in from such a different perspective. Like, what just happened? Oh, that's the worst when you get back in your car and you're like, what the fuck did I just what the fuck conversation was that? Yeah. And I feel like that happened. It's like shake it off, you know? Yeah. So there can be, so as far as like the diagnosis we used before, like these are all real diagnoses, like diagnoses like bipolar ADHD, depression, like so on and so forth. Those are real, but if what if they're being used to manipulate you? I think it happens more often than not, and I think a lot more people use it not knowing. Well, what do you mean by that? I think people are ignorant to other people's feelings and not as empathetic as they make themselves out to be. So I think a lot of people cast blame because they don't want to take accountability for themselves. I don't think it's a purpose always. I think that a lot of people don't want to say, you're right, I'm sorry, instead of it's your fault. Wait, are we taking two different perspectives here on this? Maybe. Because mine, I I'm getting something different from you, but what I'm saying is like when someone is um we're gonna use just for the sake of this, like we're gonna use bipolar because it's an easy one for me to is like when it's being used, like bipolar is a real diagnosis that you have. I can use me as an example next if you want, but like bipolar is a real diagnosis that you have. The diagnosis isn't going anywhere, it's not not real, but when it's being used to make it real like you can't rely on yourself, like you are incapable of doing X because of your diagnosis. So if you if I we were like supposed to be organizing or planning something and you were in a manic state and I use that against you, it's like, well, you don't have like the wherewithal right now, like to make this kind of to make this kind of decision or to help me plan this because like you're not relying, you're not a reliable source. Or with like my narcissistic tendencies, this was one I struggled with a lot. And I think you've heard me say it, or like, I don't even know if I'm being narcissistic or not at this point. Yeah. Because every time I felt like I would say something, and this isn't about you, this is like in general, every time I felt like I would say something, I was like, was that narcissistic? Like I literally could not decipher between my genuine actual feelings and like if it was coming off narcissistic or selfish.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

So that's what I mean when I that's my perspective on like it being used to manipulate a situation where the other person feels like they can't rely on their own brain. So they fall in line with what the other person wants. Like that's the manipulation how I'm looking at it. What are you looking at? I'm talking about more outwardly. You're talking about under the cover something. Oh yeah, I'm talking about under the covers. Okay. Okay. I thought we were thought we were doing this. We are doing this under the card. What do you mean outwardly? So I was thinking about like a simple argument that somebody might have with somebody else, and like uh take any kind of argument where say you're at a bar and you get into an argument and the person is diagnosed with bipolar or schizophrenia or something like that, right? First of all, you shouldn't be at a bar. Second of all, it's somebody being like, oh. You shouldn't be even a bowl. You shouldn't be at a bar if you're schizophrenic. What if you're we know schizophrenic people? Yeah, but they're that's different. They see that's manipulation, right there.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Caught me.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Okay, that's a fair point. You know, that's a fair point. You're right. That that exactly is like you know who if they're stable.

unknown 20:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

Not everyone's experiencing, not everyone who has a diagnosis is experiencing like the symptoms of their diagnosis that can be controlled. And that's a good point. So let's go underneath the covers then instead of let's lift up the rug instead of the surface level, because we all I think have experienced the underneath the covers is gonna make the surface level even clearer, in my opinion. I guess I was taking it from the standpoint of being the manipulator then. I guess I guess that's what I was like really seeing. And I think that when I think of a diagnosis, I always think of the extreme. I don't think of like the simple traits of the simple characteristics. I always think of the extreme, but that's not always the accurate, as you've just clearly given me great examples to. That's not always uh the case. So thank you for making it clearer. Well, yeah. So uh to your uh to your point, like there's still a fine line between uh awareness and uh misuse of labels. I think it's in the given situation using the labels is okay and it's acceptable when it comes to realistic situations. If our friend just had a baby and she's having difficulty trying to figure out whether she's having postpartum or not, and discusses with us all the symptoms, and we're like, girl, that's postpartum. Like that's that we diagnose it, but we think it sounds like postpartum. Right, not that we can diagnose. I'm not a doctor. I have no authority when it comes to the medical field. However, it sounds like what you're describing to me isn't a safe environment for you, and maybe you should talk to a professional about what you're feeling. You know what I mean? Versus like, you know, I'm a little sad that like because I know that some women after they give birth, they feel like lonely or empty because the baby's no longer physically in. So like they'll have feelings of like emptiness or something like that. And I don't know if that coincides with postpartum, but like giving me that example versus like, oh, I feel like, you know, I'm gonna hurt myself or hurt the baby, like girls postpartum, close to the doctor, versus like I'm feeling empty, like I don't know. And that's that fine line that I think is a little gray. Uh okay. I guess I'm trying to understand where that comes in a misuse of labels. Because I don't want to tell you that your feeling of emptiness is postpartum if I don't know for sure. Okay. And you wouldn't know for sure because you're not a doctor. So again, like when it comes to I mean, it's a common representation that when women say I want to hurt myself or others after having a baby, like, that's postpartum. Oh, yeah, of course. Versus like symptoms that you might not be so sure of. I'm not going to say anything about postpartum because like I think you should speak with a doctor. Okay. Yeah, I think we're still on two very different sides at this point. Okay. Well, maybe that's the case though. Maybe that's the role that we're taking. I'm okay with that. Okay. I don't know if I'm going to do that. I think you're wrong, but like, I'm kidding. I'm I was like, I don't think I'm understanding your side of it, I guess, or your perspective. I don't think I'm getting it. Okay. I don't think I'm getting it. So tell me what you are thinking when it comes to this fine line versus I agree with what you're saying, but I need more examples. So as far as like the fine line between raised awareness and misuse of labels, like diagnosis can explain behavior, but it does not automatically excuse it. So, for example, if we're post we're gonna use Lindsay Clancy's postpartum psychosis, like we can use that to explain the behavi, we can use that to explain the behavior, but it's not excuse it. Like at the end of the day, like whether she was if she was suffering from postpartum psychosis, there's no debate of at this time, there's no debate that like she had done it. The behavior of what she has done is not excusable, but what it helps the diagnosis helps to explain like how we had gotten there with all the failed resources that led up to that. Okay, but I have like an argument with that because like there were so many resources, there's so many things that are put in place specifically for this to not happen and all those failed things, and I'm not excusing her behavior. I don't think you should kill your children. I'm not excusing her behavior, but I'm saying that these failed resources failed her. So that's what I'm saying. So, what do you think is going to happen? I'm agreeing with you. I'm not yelling at you, I'm just very passionate about this. So, from my perspective, it was like a diagnosis can explain someone's behavior, but it doesn't erase the impact that behavior has on you or that the or that it has on the other person, depending on like what dynamic we're looking at. So I think that's where so I get your confusion because I think that's where people can get confused because suddenly we're having a conversation about whether or not this person can control what they're doing instead of whether or not what they're doing is hurting the relationship that they're a part of. I don't think that they can see it, you know? I think it depends.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

So what do you mean you don't tell me what you mean by that?

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Like how you said, like it doesn't excuse the behavior. I guess with a real diagnosis, can this person see what they're doing?

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Yeah, that's a good point. So it doesn't excuse the behavior, but can they like control it or see what they're doing? They might not have that self-awareness. Um from the perspective of like lifting up the rug and showing that there's like more intricacies going on underneath the surface, I would say that okay, so this that would be an effect on the relationship as far as like the person having the diagnosis and knowing what they're doing to be able to excuse their own behavior would affect the other person negatively. So for example, with my depression, if I was not in a like dysfunctional state of depression, so probably like now, and like I simply like didn't want to do something, so I started to back off the labor in the house so that you would pick up the slack kind of thing. Okay. Like I wouldn't do that, and the only time I did do that, and most people would do that, is when you are like in a state of dysfunction. Um, however, I think that's more of a narcissistic treat than a depressive treat. So if you were to like purposely lay back so that someone else picks up your slumber, definitely narcissistic, right? So if so that would be like someone who knows what they're doing. Now, if someone who um simply has a diagnosis and the other person takes advantage of that diagnosis, it would be a little bit different. So that was the example I gave before where it's like, well, we can't trust what your perspective is because of the state of mind that you are in. And it basically makes that person a not credible source. Yeah. And also it makes them feel like they aren't a credible source for themselves. So the less they rely on themselves, the more they rely on that person. And that gives that person all the power to manipulate not just their train of thought, but their actions, what they think isn't isn't appropriate. Yeah. And like a not allegible codependency. Yeah. So like when diagnoses become tools for manipulation, like that's kind of yeah, the aspect I'm talking about for like lifting. Okay. Now I see your perspective. I can see where you're coming from. Okay. I think I just took you know you ever play Candyland? I think I just took like the long way to get there. Okay, because I'm still trying to understand your perspective. So I see what you're saying. I hear what you're saying. I guess I just didn't comprehend what you were saying. Okay. So I hear you now. I get it now. You don't have to give me another example. Okay. So I know one of the things that we have here is like to share personal experiences and being misunderstood. So for mine, like I mentioned, like the narcissistic trait part, I feel like for a minute, um, and this is like hard because even now I'm like this narcissistic, even telling people this, but like I feel like when going through like, okay, I have treats, and like after the initial learning curve, and granted, that took months, but after the initial learning curve of that, there was still like I still had a lot of trouble like speaking up to you about things because I was like, well, that's just like it immediately was like, well, if I'm coming to the table with something, right, then it must be selfish and narcissistic. So it was like it took a toll, and I'm not saying this was like the intent, um, but by you or like therapy, but like it took like this connotation that like I wasn't a reliable source. Okay. So you feel like I was taking advantage of it? No, I was very confused though. Okay. Like I was very confused because I would come to you and you'd be like, that's not narcissistic, but like I feel like there were so many times even in session where I was like, I feel like everything I'm saying is like narcissistic. And like it was just very hard to navigate. Um, I think like a softer, more palatable example would be the ADHD for people. Because I feel like narcissism is also like a really yeah, rough, like for because again, with the narcissist, I'm narc I have narcissistic. I'm not a narcissist. But I feel like as soon as you throw that word narcissist in there, even now, like people are not gonna fucking. Oh no, it lights up, it lights up worse. Yeah, people are not gonna like that. Like, so they're I'm probably immediately gonna be like, you're doing it. Like you're doing it right now. Like but that's also to say that like when I'm in a manic state, you know what I mean? Like, we have been told many times that you can't ride my wave with me. You know what I mean? But how many times have I tried to manipulate you to ride the wave with me? Yeah, so that's you know what I mean. So that's an example, right? Like, so can you elaborate on that a little bit? Because that's a good one. Yeah, no, there are plenty of times, specifically in the summertime, that like I'll get into this like heightened state of everything's an adventure, and I'll be like, we can do this, we can do that, and no big deal. But realistically, it is a big deal. You have a job, like you can't just like not, you can't just do whatever you want to fucking do. You and like sometimes it does feel like that, and sometimes it does feel like everything is exploding and great and cool, but like you have responsibilities, and like that's a real thing that you have to do. And I know that I robe you into my ideas thinking that everything is great, and literally, unless it's baking, it's most of the time not that great. So, I mean, would you go to Aruba? And that was a great, that was a great decision. I I know, and they're already included, I know, but I do get roped into see that's that's it right there. Like robing me into riding the wave because it's like, but it's fun, but we can do this, but that like don't you want to be excited, but you want something to look forward to? And it's like I'm stable, yeah, or at least I was until five minutes ago. Like, so like there's again, there's the manipulation on both parts. It can come from the person who has the diagnosis or the person who's weaponizing the diagnosis against that person. Absolutely. Obviously, there's like a million different ways that this could be spun. Right. Well, there's like charisma and there's charm, so it gropes a person in almost immediately. Right. And then also, so it can get to the point where there's and we've experienced this in like our first um, we've experienced this in like our first few episodes where we talked about like navig so navigating sides. So for example, in episode one where we went into like you stepping out, it was very clear how like I had used that to like, I mean, granted, didn't work with our friends, but I had used that to get like my family on my side. Yeah, you really have troops. Right. Because it's a clear cut, like, well, she did something bad, but because mine wasn't visible, it was easy for me to pull the strings. I'm not saying like I know it wasn't like I wouldn't repeat that, but I'm just saying, like, as far as in the traits of manipulation, like someone can paint the picture that, oh, well, this person is severely depressed. Actually, this happened with my maid of honor. This person's severely depressed. I'm worried about them. They are not a reliable source, and would reach out to support systems and family to get them to choose the side of concern, but it wasn't really concern as much as it was trying to discredit my own decision-making skills. Right. So when I had gone to her and said, like, we were gonna work this out, she had reached out to my mom. Yeah, that's why to be like, to, yeah, she'd reach out to my mom to be like, hey, and she wanted to call. I'm I know, like, hey, I need you to call me. Like, I'm concerned about Warren. And luckily, my mom and I have been through this before, where she like had sent me the text messages and we were on the same page that like that wasn't appropriate, like for this person overstep, but that was that kind of tactic, like being pressured of this third party, like my parent, to choose a side where I can't trust my own thoughts. Right. No, that's fair. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then also, would you like to, would you like to well, during that time specifically, I know that there were people that were sympathizing with me and empathizing and being like, well, like you must be going, you must be going through something like a personal crisis or something. Yeah, I've done this, we feel so bad, I'm so sorry, kind of thing. You know what I mean? And they would rally behind me rather than you. And like, granted, we're not friends with these people anymore, but like there was plenty of, I get it, Vicky, I get it. And like that was a shitty thing to do all around, like for me and for you. Like, first of all, you shouldn't say you get it, me having an emotional affair, and like you shouldn't say you get it. Like me being married to one of your close friends. Don't tell me you understand why I cheated on her. Like, why would you fucking say that? But like me being in the state that I was in, like, of course I wanted that sympathy. Of course, like that was the manipul manipulation tactic on my part. Of course I wanted that sympathy, of course I wanted that. Thank you for understanding. Like, you know what I mean? And like it came down to a self-confident thing, it came down to a self-being thing, but like it's like that was a very um an interesting moment. When it was that they were in the different versions of the event and like what stance they wanted to take on it. They all wanted to take the stance of I want nothing to do with this, but I also have something to say about it. Yeah, but also, yeah, exactly. But then that misinform like it was misinformation from both sides because they were getting absolutely a hundred percent your perspective where you were not in a good headspace at the time, and they were a hundred percent getting my perspective where I wasn't a good headspace at the time, and I sure as fuck wasn't taking responsibility for my part in that. Yeah, so um, yeah, no, I hear you, I get with you. So, as far as like having dissent different versions of the events, and then also imagine that, but amplify it on a scale of social media because we see that all the time. So it can amplify one person's narrative. So well, it did if we're looking at the Lindsay Clancy case, for example. Well, yeah, I think that are a different or no, no, no, I think it's Lindsey Clancy case. Like, that's excuse me, that's what I'm like referring to exactly, is that like it's amplifying everything. Like now it's like you said, it's in the news, it's on social media, and how many people do you think are gonna go back and forth in those comments saying he did it, she did it, he did it, she did it, and like is it excusable? Is it a psychosis? And like again, for me to be in the world of mental health and take it so seriously, and then have to break it down to what is a diagnosis, what is a symptom, what is a psychosis, what is a syndrome, you know what I mean? Like it goes into these different categories of who did what when, and like what proof is there and what state is everybody in. And like we don't know anything about the husband. Like, we know allegedly, allegedly, we know she did it. That's what we know. And that's what the argument's about, right? What do we know about this guy? Right. So I think what's interesting about that case too, and like how like a sign can be projected or amplified online is from my perspective, it looks like it was supposed to be his side that was amplified online, and it just didn't take that way. Right, right, right. Which is what's interesting because normally when someone's villainied, villainized on social media, everyone kind of like rallies behind that, like, oh my god, this is terrible. Like, so to see that kind of switch, but that can happen in like smaller inter, not just on a large media scale, but also in smaller interpersonal groups, of course, where people are manipulating like friends or family to get on the side of someone else, like right, like see what they did, like clearly, like, I don't even know what like we did it, but also Yeah, no, no, no, but that's what it is. It's almost it at that point, it is a tit for tat of like well, he did this, but she did this because of this. And what's really going on, like we were saying before, like under the covers, like what's really happening there, and nobody really knows unless you're involved in it. But that's the sick part is that social media and those limelig really want to highlight those tit for tats, and underneath the tit for tat level is a more discreet, more mental game of fuck you, no fuck you, and this is why. And of course, like if there's always a hierarchy of who's right and who's wrong, that's what social media is gonna prove. Yeah. And you know, millions of people are commenting, right? And also, and again, like that's the largest bit, but even if we look on like the smaller scale of what people can do to each other, like interpersonally, absolutely we can see like for let me take a screenshot and put it on my fucking Facebook and then I'll show you, yeah, you know, or also like starting to leave somebody out of a group. Like I know like that was mine, was like I started getting left out of things, yeah, and then I would see like everyone else together, and it was like, oh, well, clearly there's something wrong with me then, since I'm not being included anymore. Right. There's a million ways that you can spin it. Right. Like you said, you can post something, like you can start to like exclude someone, like you can send, even send screenshots to someone, like whatever. There's a very easy way to include that into amplifying one person's narrative. So if they're the one pulling the information and filtering it through somebody else, it's how loudly you speak, unfortunately. We're in a world, we are in the world of social media where it is how loudly you speak. How much can you broadcast this, and how often can you broadcast this? Because the more it's in somebody's face, the more I'm in your face telling you how much Deb right work really puffed me over, like the more you're gonna have fuck you, Deb. Yeah, like you know what I mean. Like, fuck you, Deb. But like that's the thing, is like Deb's just a fucking little lady that wants to retire next year and she has no idea that she's been sealing my candy bar for the past year. Like, she has no idea what she's actually doing. You know what I like, and that's the thing is that you turn these, you turn that narrative into more than a he said, she said, it's it's more of the you know, where you lie on that, what is that faint line, I guess you could say. It can make complicated situations look deceptively simple. Absolutely. It can definitely like narrow that down. Yeah. And then also we have like what I guess here's one question, as I know we've been going on like underneath the surface of like people pulling strings. Like, what do you think happens when complicated relationships get reduced to like the narcissist and the victim? And granted, there are those simple I think it happens all the time.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

Those are those simple cases, but like there's always a yes. What do I think of it? Like what what's your question?

SPEAKER_00 39:47

So when so like ours was complicated, right? Like I but I spun it where like I was the victim and you were like the narcissist because you did such a broad action. Huge stroke. Yeah, it was a huge stroke that was obvious where mine had like built up over the years underneath the surface. Correct. So I'm saying, like, what do you think happens in dynamic? Like that dynamic could have gone a very different way. Like, if we didn't have a therapist that we had to like navigate us through that, it could have been very different. So, in situations where people don't have those resources or like can't get the blinders off long enough to like to make a decision to get their way out, like what do you think happens in those dynamics where it ends up being clearly someone's fault and clearly someone else is a victim, even though obviously there are some other things usually happening. I'm gonna it always takes two to hang out to an extent. No, I just yeah, I don't think that there ever is a clear narcissist and a clear victim. Now that you've given me the pieces, I don't think anyone is ever right or wrong. I think that it becomes so muddled, right? I think that everything becomes so muddled that eventually it's just that like, of course I'm not gonna do the fucking laundry. When the last time you mowed the fucking lawn, but at the end of the day, she's the woman, so why would you put mowing lawn on her tape? You know what I mean? Like that was really generous specific. But that's how people would see it via social media. That's why I'm saying like that bigger cast, that bigger. That was super of course it is, but that's how people see it. Like, that's what I'm saying in the bigger world and the bigger scheme of things. Like, no, he's not gonna do the fucking laundry and she's not gonna mow the fucking lawn, but why aren't they doing it anyway? And it's like, because I don't care about you. What I care about is last week you were supposed to pick up the kid, you forgot you forgot because you wanted to go out to the movies in the fucking cigar place with your buddies. Like, okay, I was out there picking up the kids, so that's why I'm not gonna fold your fucking under where you pick. There we go. Like, you know what I mean? But that's what it turns into, and then think of years upon years of that. So we talked about like the undercurrents and like how things appear, how people can pull strengths, but what do you what do we actually do like in these situations? So, first, if you are because we talk about how like it goes two ways, right? Sometimes you can be the perpetrator, sometimes you can be like the victim of the manipulation. So if you're in the position of being like a potential perpetrator, stop trying to diagnose the other person. For real. For real, stop trying to diagnose the other person. Um and separate explanation from accountability. So you can't basically be like, oh well, like I'm like they have ADHD, so they have horrible focus. So it's like taking the accountability off the person's action itself and putting it on the diagnosis. At the end of the day, the person is accountable for that action. So instead of so essentially, if you were to come to me and be like, you know, you didn't get like you clearly like are having like an ADHD fit, like you didn't get the dishes done, like clearly you're having trouble focusing today. It's like discrediting like my brain, putting on the diagnosis, like I'm the victim of said diagnosis when in reality I just didn't do the fucking dishes. Yeah. And like be mad about the action and that yeah, no, that took a long time to process actually because you are ADHD. It took me a very long time to process certain things wouldn't get done in the house, and it was hard for me to navigate that these dishes won't get done, and whether it was a purposeful act done by you or your ADHD symptoms, or I don't know, anything else, right? And that's something that I still navigate with, and I still have to like because I don't want to discredit you. But I feel like every time I ask you to, I need that answer so like I can like have the compassion in the right compartment. No, yeah, 100%. There's a fine balance. Like it's like you what all I'm all I'm saying is that like when someone's supposed to be taking accountability, don't throw their diagnosis at. Their face is all I'm saying. I agree. Like it can be a part of explanation, like, but it can't be an excuse. So there's again, there is a fine balance here. I agree. And I I don't know if I want to believe that a lot of people are mature enough to accept that truth. No. That's why we have this podcast. I know. I know. It took a long time. Like we're gonna like still navigate. Like you said, like you still navigate it. There's times where I'm like, I'm doing, and it'll even prep you now. You'll come home and be like, I'm doing this. I have to leave this. Transitioning. Like, I'm doing this because I yeah, I have to leave you your messy space too. Like, there are certain spots in the house that like I like have to like leave because like that's how your brain works. And like at times it drives me crazy. I'm like, nope, that's like her space, that's how she functions. And like I have to like really like accept and like because I'm so OCD when it comes to like my diagnosis. I was gonna say we have to also make sure that we are respecting each other's diagnoses, like not using it as an excuse. We still have to take accountability for ourselves and our actions, and when we're placing it, I'm not going to go, I can't go to you and be like, oh, like you're being so bipolar, like XYZ didn't get done. I have to be like, hey, like what's going on? Yeah. It has to be addressed properly. It has to be addressed properly, and it can't be again, we have to look at patterns instead of isolated incidents. Right. So if we're going to have There's a great way to say it. Yeah, if we're gonna have like an isolated incident, treat it as an isolated incident. If it's a pattern, that's where there needs to be like a deeper conversation of like why is this continuously not happening? And same thing, and that's from like trying to be on the same page, but when it comes from a when it comes from an manipulation place, it's the same thing. Like if there's an isolated incident, like people are still human beings, they like hang fuck up. But if there's a pattern of someone always trying to discredit you or always trying to manipulate the situation where you cannot be accountable or aware of your own self, and they have the they are the one that should be leaned on. Like they are like the accountable brain. Like that's where you can start feeling okay, like why does this person always feel the need to have control? And yeah, to feel the need to have control. And like, why do I always feel guilty voicing myself or trying to stand on my own two feet? My therapist actually said that. My therapist said, first time you forgive, second time you notice, third time it's a pattern. And like I like that. I know. I really, I really like that input. And I feel like that's what I like use now when it comes to almost like everything. I'm just like, okay, like first time I'm a very forgiving person. First time I'll forgive and I'll understand. Second time, same thing. They will forgive and I'll give you that third opportunity. That third time I'm like, what the fuck is up? Like, not cool, but so it takes that extra step of wanting to allow those things to happen and like not like set a trap. I don't mean it in quote unquote, like set a trap. Yeah. But I do mean it in like you have to be willing to see where this relationship goes to see if it is a pattern. Right. You know, yeah. And at the end of the day, like we gotta set boundaries based on behavior, not labels. Right. So again, like just because you're bipolar doesn't mean you're not a functioning adult. Just because I have AVHG does not mean I can't be a functioning adult. Like it has to go with like how our behaviors are wrapped. We're all just animals and button-downs, you know. No, really though. Oh, that wasn't my quote. I think F Scott Fitzgerald, I think watch it like not be. I think if we're all just animals and button downs, it it's a perfect quote. I'm like, aren't we just? Yeah. Anyway. But when you're last note, when you're the when you are on the other side of that, if if you're the perpetrator, then like, yeah, take note of like what we just said there. Like that would be like again, based on behavior, not labels. But if you are constantly leaving a room feeling like you went into something with a certain mindset, and then you walk out and you feel like you don't even know what way is up anymore, like take a deeper look at the patterns and behaviors of the person that you're surrounding yourself with. Because they may be using your diagnosis to discredit. You can also revisit those conversations. Well, you can also revisit those conversations. Like you can say the next time you talk to this person, like, hey, I'm really confused about this last conversation we had. Like, what did you mean by this? Like, don't be afraid to say that. You know what I mean? Because those are the ways that if you are being manipulated, that's a great way to kind of catch that manipulation happening in the end. So no, I love that. That's a perfect note to end this on. Yeah, yeah. See you guys in two weeks. Make sure to make sure to follow and subscribe. Um, and that way you get alerted every time we drop a new episode. And next time we talk to you, it'll be September. September, yeah. Send this to it, will be actually send this to someone who you thought of about as far as like being discredited. I feel like we all have someone who we've seen that happen to. Yeah, yeah. Send this to a friend you just want to discuss life with. If you need something else to talk about, talk about us. Love you. Bye.